DBWI: Ottoman Empire based in Anatolia

The Ottoman Empire (the predecessor state of Sultanate of Turkey) was considered one of the most powerful Islamic empires in history. From its capital Bağdat, they once controlled the whole Fertile Cresent, a chunk of Arabian Peninsula, North Africa (except Morocco), Kurdistan and even Cilicia. At one time, they also controlled the Anatolian interior until the early years of 19th century, when the military forces of the Hellenic Confederation (the predecessor of the Kingdom of Greece), along with their allies, defeated the Ottoman forces little by little.

According to the history books, Ottoman Empire was actually founded by surviving Seljuk Turks after they were defeated in Manzikert (some of them were Orthodox Christians) and fled to then central and southern Mesopotamia.

So here's the question: What if the Ottoman Empire was founded in Anatolia, instead in Mesopotamia (which is now Turkey)? What will be it's impact on the history of the Middle East (and the world in general)?

Thanks!
 
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birdboy2000

Banned
Osman isn't a particularly rare name among the Turks, so I guess it's possible that another ghazi by that name carves out a sizable Anatolian Turkish state, although it'd take a fairly sizable Byzantine-screw.

That said, it'd be one hell of a coincidence. I wouldn't recommend it in an AH story for that reason - things would get confusing quickly.
 

Asami

Banned
Osman isn't a particularly rare name among the Turks, so I guess it's possible that another ghazi by that name carves out a sizable Anatolian Turkish state, although it'd take a fairly sizable Byzantine-screw.

I mean, how big of a screw though? Byzantium was powerful in that time... you'd have to screw them over majorly, to the near ASB point.

To get this kind of Byzantiumscrew, you'd have to break the Makedon succession at some point, which is borderline ASB with how fanatically popular they were after Basil in the 9th century.

If you could get a string of weak emperors, then perhaps. Or even have Constantinople sacked by foreign powers... maybe the fearsome Odin-worshipping Saxons? Or perhaps the Avar Khaganate before they were Christianized by King Ludwig II of Bavaria in the early 10th century? Khagan Bayan IV "the Bulgar-Slayer" hated the Greeks enough to conquer Bulgaria shortly before being Christianized and keep his soldiers a sharp pointed knife in the heart of Greece before they were driven back in the 13th century... or even the Magyar Khanate under Stefan I. He raided the Byzantine shoreline numerous times from his capital in the Crimea, but he never could penetrate the walls of Constantinople ;)
 
Osman isn't a particularly rare name among the Turks, so I guess it's possible that another ghazi by that name carves out a sizable Anatolian Turkish state, although it'd take a fairly sizable Byzantine-screw.

That said, it'd be one hell of a coincidence. I wouldn't recommend it in an AH story for that reason - things would get confusing quickly.

I think he meant, what if the same empire was founded by the same fleeing Seljuks led by the same Osman? I guess instead of fleeing they just moved to another part of Anatolia and keep fighting, or win at Manizert.

For it to be founded there, yeah, as you've said, would take a pretty big Byz-screw. But I Imagine they'd have some parts of the Balkans under their command. They'd probably have not conquered as much of modern Turkey. They might have significantly less dominance over western north Africa and Hejaz
 
Osman isn't a particularly rare name among the Turks, so I guess it's possible that another ghazi by that name carves out a sizable Anatolian Turkish state, although it'd take a fairly sizable Byzantine-screw.

That said, it'd be one hell of a coincidence. I wouldn't recommend it in an AH story for that reason - things would get confusing quickly.

I don't know; I kind of like the idea. You could even use it as a bit of a juxtaposition; make the ATL Ottomans the heirs of Byzantium, and adapt that culture to the Islamo-Turkish state, much like the OTL Ottomans did the same to Persian culture. Which makes me think; considering how important the Ottomans were to rebuilding Persia, nearly recreating the borders of the Empire of Cyrus and Xerxes, and keeping it on par with the rising European states, I wonder what the region of Mesopotamia (modern day Turkistan) and Iran would be like without a strong and stable Ottoman state?
 

Asami

Banned
I don't know; I kind of like the idea. You could even use it as a bit of a juxtaposition; make the ATL Ottomans the heirs of Byzantium, and adapt that culture to the Islamo-Turkish state, much like the OTL Ottomans did the same to Persian culture. Which makes me think; considering how important the Ottomans were to rebuilding Persia, nearly recreating the borders of the Empire of Cyrus and Xerxes, and keeping it on par with the rising European states, I wonder what the region of Mesopotamia (modern day Turkistan) and Iran would be like without a strong and stable Ottoman state?

You wouldn't have Baghdad being the cultural center of the Middle East. Without the Ottoman Turks, Baghdad would've likely fell into disarray by some terrible force, probably the Mongol Khanate that threatened to spill over into Persia before the Ottoman Sultan paid him a handsome dowry for his daughter.

Baghdad's library kept it going, and that's why Baghdad is called the "Intellectual Capital" of the world.
 
make the ATL Ottomans the heirs of Byzantium, and adapt that culture to the Islamo-Turkish state

I like that! Could we expect Ottoman claims to be a third Rome? Maybe a Sultan can declare himself "Kayser-i-Rum"? It would be cool to see how a Muslim state claiming to be the third Rome would boil over in Europe.
 
I like that! Could we expect Ottoman claims to be a third Rome? Maybe a Sultan can declare himself "Kayser-i-Rum"? It would be cool to see how a Muslim state claiming to be the third Rome would boil over in Europe.

Oh god, could you imagine if they took it too far and tried to reclaim Rome itself? That would cause a S*&%storm of epic proportions. Of course, they'd likely have to get through the Holy Roman Empire first, and the region of Austria is pretty tough terrain.

Still, yeah, an Ottoman-Byzantium would be pretty cool; although I can't imagine the Balkan Slavs would enjoy having a Muslim ruler (or, for that matter, the Armenians and Greeks in Anatolia. But, maybe, we can have the Seljuk Turks settle in Anatolia for a few generations and Turkize the population, because this Ottoman Empire forms. If we push it into the 14th or 15th century, the region should be pretty Turkish by that point, and this would give the Empire a good population base to expand from.
 
Might they convert to Orthodoxy and Hellenize? The Ruthenii converted upon their short-lived rule over North Anatolia. Although they were not very heavily Islamicized yet.
 
Might they convert to Orthodoxy and Hellenize? The Ruthenii converted upon their short-lived rule over North Anatolia. Although they were not very heavily Islamicized yet.

Depends; if they set up this new Empire right after Manzikert, I could see it. They would be a small ruling class over a largely Grecco-Orthodox population. But if its later? Not so likely, since they would have been Muslim for much longer, and might have managed to Turkize the population (which would also be Muslim by this point too).

But, I say go for the later one. The Byzantines were entering a weak period at the time of Manzikert, but having their entire Empire fall over one battle or campaign seems a bit too hard to swallow. Also, having them form later and create a Muslim Turkish state that built upon Byzantium just sounds ... so much cooler!
 
Oh god, could you imagine if they took it too far and tried to reclaim Rome itself? That would cause a S*&%storm of epic proportions. Of course, they'd likely have to get through the Holy Roman Empire first, and the region of Austria is pretty tough terrain.

Still, yeah, an Ottoman-Byzantium would be pretty cool; although I can't imagine the Balkan Slavs would enjoy having a Muslim ruler (or, for that matter, the Armenians and Greeks in Anatolia. But, maybe, we can have the Seljuk Turks settle in Anatolia for a few generations and Turkize the population, because this Ottoman Empire forms. If we push it into the 14th or 15th century, the region should be pretty Turkish by that point, and this would give the Empire a good population base to expand from.

No ot would be fairly easy to do. Assume that Byzantium somehow fally to the Turks. They have a foothold in the Balkans. An attack on rome would no necessarily have to go through the HRE - no - I assume that the Ottomans would build a large fleet (maybe even ally themselves with the Venetians - who depend on trade through Egyopt and the Levant) LAnd a fleet at Otrato and march to rome - it would be possible.
 
Ottomans replace the Byzantines. OK then 2 options
1. Expand south through the Levant into Egypt and North Africa. Perhaps also building a sizeable navy to keep the Venetians and Genoese at bay. Real butterfly they also get Mesopotamia at some point from the Persians.
However then the discovery of Frobisheria and Andea gets pushed 100 years earlier to late 1400s as the route the China is blocked.
2. If and only if they manage to capture Constantinople then Balkans up to and including Hungary royally screwed. They were in a real mess 1300 to 1500 and anybody who had really wanted to could have taken them quite easily. You may even then get some minor germans such as the cadet branch of the Hapsburgs rising to prominance.
They couldn't have done both could they? No not even the Byzantines under Constantine XI managed it.
 
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