DBWI: No WW2 British invasion of Ireland?

What if the British had not invaded Ireland during WW2 to secure the Treaty Ports? Would Anglo-Irish relations be better without the bloody invasion and resulting guerrilla war or would Britain's rule of Northern Ireland still prevent good relations?
 
Easy, have Ireland not fall to Fascism in the 1930s.
The idea of de Valera being a fascist is false and post-war Allied propaganda to justify the invasion, yes the term Taoiseach has similarities to 'Fuhrer' or 'Duce' and de Valera did have connections to anti-treaty IRA paramilitaries and some socially conservative views, but he was democratically elected in the 1932, 1933, 1937 and 1938 elections and showed no sign of establishing a dictatorship.
 
The idea of de Valera being a fascist is false and post-war Allied propaganda to justify the invasion, yes the term Taoiseach has similarities to 'Fuhrer' or 'Duce' and de Valera did have connections to anti-treaty IRA paramilitaries and some socially conservative views, but he was democratically elected in the 1932, 1933, 1937 and 1938 elections and showed no sign of establishing a dictatorship.
Irish democracy during the 1920s and 1930s was a joke-any political party that didn't support de Valera's theocratic views was relentlessly suppressed, and the Blue Shirts were always on the prowl for "ungodly behavior." There's a good reason why modern Ireland is so left-wing.
 
What if the British had not invaded Ireland during WW2 to secure the Treaty Ports? Would Anglo-Irish relations be better without the bloody invasion and resulting guerrilla war or would Britain's rule of Northern Ireland still prevent good relations?

Well, I can't imagine the relations would be any better without the mass migration/"pogrom driven expulsion" (Depending on who you ask... the line is always a little fuzzy when dealing with radical Clerical-Facists who are a legitimate threat to state and civilian security) of the Irish Nationalists from Ulster prior to and just after the invasion. Sure, most became guerrilla fighters, servants or soldiers of the de Valera government, or informants in the South, but it served to more sharply define the "British" and "Irish" zones of the island, allowing the north to escape a lot of the Troubles/2nd Irish War of Independence and the Irish Republic's later clashs and low-scale civil war between the radicals, liberal democrats, and communists.
 
The idea of de Valera being a fascist is false and post-war Allied propaganda to justify the invasion, yes the term Taoiseach has similarities to 'Fuhrer' or 'Duce' and de Valera did have connections to anti-treaty IRA paramilitaries and some socially conservative views, but he was democratically elected in the 1932, 1933, 1937 and 1938 elections and showed no sign of establishing a dictatorship.

True. However...

There's a good reason why modern Ireland is so left-wing.

This. He wasn't a fascist but he was bound and determined to turn Ireland into a 'godly' society. While the British Occupation was vicious and utterly without justification, at least it rid Ireland of John Charles McQuaid and the Magdalene Laundries, and it exposed just how much wrongdoing was endemic in the Church. Ireland may never have become a social democracy if it hadn't been for that side of the Occupation. Which would have been a tragedy...
 
the Blue Shirts were always on the prowl for "ungodly behavior."
You mean the pro-treaty Blueshirts that often clashed with de Valera's anti-treaty supporters? Yes, they started supporting the government at the end but only after the Second Anglo-Irish War had begun.

There's a good reason why modern Ireland is so left-wing.
That has less to do with the alleged tyranny of de Valera (more tyrannical than the British ethnically cleansing half a million people in Ulster apparently) and more to do with the fact that the far-right was eradicated while the Soviet Union became the main opposition to British imperialism. There's a reason Ireland is known for NazBols and people who think that the Nazis and Soviets should have allied to destroy the British Empire.
 
Beyond all that it tied up far to many Allied soldiers in occupation duties. Churchills persuasion of Roosevelt to instal US soldiers as replacements for Commonwealth in 1942 did nothing for either US - Irish relations, or Irish ancestored US citizens in internal US politics. There have been long running arguments the Irish occupation had snowball effects that delayed the invasion of France until 1944. About the only real benefit I have ever seen is it allowed Coastal Command to extend its Husdons and PBY Catalinas further into the Atlantic. Some folks argue that absent that the Brits would have allocated VLR aircraft to Coastal Commands ASW effort sooner. My take is thats not likely, Harris had too much influence over Churchill in 1942.
 
You mean the pro-treaty Blueshirts that often clashed with de Valera's anti-treaty supporters? Yes, they started supporting the government at the end but only after the Second Anglo-Irish War had begun.
Both were just as brutal towards the common people of Ireland. De Valera may not have supported the "Morality militias" as they were commonly called, but he sure as hell didn't do anything to stop them either.
the alleged tyranny of de Valera
De Valera is probably the most hated man in Irish history today. I'm not excusing anything the British did, but at least they got rid of that asshole.

I do wonder what would happen if he never got that head injury from a falling chandelier in 1927. According to those who knew him, he was never the same after that.
 
Ooc: why is it that whenever leftism and the right wing come into play, the DBWI gwts less and less coherent?

IC: Much of the leftism in Ireland stems from the Communist faction of the postwar chaos, who were devoted to James Connolly and his advocation of Marxism- De Leonism in his writings. Its actually quite interesting how they managed to remain avoid Communist without turning to Marxism-Leninism as many Communist parties have done in the past. It's also created a bit of a revival of the Socialist Labor Party in America, especially since the teachings of Connolly resonated with many working class Irish-Americans, which spread to Americans in general. It hasn't won shit, but it is in the public conciousness. Thank god we have the Dropkick Murphys or it might have been rather underground like in the past.
 
Irish people don't care bout the ideology.

They care about Connoly being the only leader whose organisation was never tainted by the brother vs brother conflicts.

I mean Dev concentrated power and he kept hitting out at those who opposed him in the civil war. There was purges. The blue shirts leadership was killed off.

The question remains though was this Irish fascist organisation killed off by Dev or by the British prior to the invasion. Anyone with sense says they were murdered by the British.

Dev set up his own Blue shirts trying to take advantage of their leaderless movement but that was nothing more than an attempt to unite a nation under constant threat of British assault.

Personally I blame Churchill. He was a butcher during the rising using his position as a cabinet member toe enforce his fascist anti anti Irish crusade. Remember the poor children murdered by the British army in 1916, their murderers pardoned under Churchill's influence. Personally I say he ordered it. Remember the British merry band of murderers driving into football stadiums and spraying civilians with machine gun fire.

Remember just a generation later how Britain enforced their rule on Ireland. How they claimed their treaty ports. How the fascist bastard Churchill had every civilian murdered with 20 miles of a 'treaty port.

Churchill Stalin and Hitler the great Butchers of the 20th century. If you want to insult anyone even to this day you call them an imperialist, a communist or a fascist.
 
Irish people don't care bout the ideology.

They care about Connoly being the only leader whose organisation was never tainted by the brother vs brother conflicts.

I mean Dev concentrated power and he kept hitting out at those who opposed him in the civil war. There was purges. The blue shirts leadership was killed off.

The question remains though was this Irish fascist organisation killed off by Dev or by the British prior to the invasion. Anyone with sense says they were murdered by the British.

Dev set up his own Blue shirts trying to take advantage of their leaderless movement but that was nothing more than an attempt to unite a nation under constant threat of British assault.

Personally I blame Churchill. He was a butcher during the rising using his position as a cabinet member toe enforce his fascist anti anti Irish crusade. Remember the poor children murdered by the British army in 1916, their murderers pardoned under Churchill's influence. Personally I say he ordered it. Remember the British merry band of murderers driving into football stadiums and spraying civilians with machine gun fire.

Remember just a generation later how Britain enforced their rule on Ireland. How they claimed their treaty ports. How the fascist bastard Churchill had every civilian murdered with 20 miles of a 'treaty port.

Churchill Stalin and Hitler the great Butchers of the 20th century. If you want to insult anyone even to this day you call them an imperialist, a communist or a fascist.

Bit of an extreme generalization but I agree. Connolly is a nationalist figure for much of Ireland.
 
You mean the pro-treaty Blueshirts that often clashed with de Valera's anti-treaty supporters? Yes, they started supporting the government at the end but only after the Second Anglo-Irish War had begun.


That has less to do with the alleged tyranny of de Valera (more tyrannical than the British ethnically cleansing half a million people in Ulster apparently) and more to do with the fact that the far-right was eradicated while the Soviet Union became the main opposition to British imperialism. There's a reason Ireland is known for NazBols and people who think that the Nazis and Soviets should have allied to destroy the British Empire.

Like I said, the line gets a little fuzzy. There are still plenty of Gaelic peoples and even Catholics in Ulster, though they're clearly in the minority (The last census showed only 23% of the population identify Gaelic/Irish). Rather, there was a simultaneously a major uptick in Nationalist agitation; recognized by nearly the entire world outside radical Irish circles as funded and driven by the de Valera government, and a rise in Anti-Facist opinions in Britain as a result of the situation on the continent. Yes, the Ulstermen started treating the Gaelic population pretty poorly and with a lot of suspicion... but when you coulden't get through three days without a Protestant church being bombed, British civil administer attacked, or a local gathering targeted by smuggled poison gas canisters... every incident followed by a slew of Anti-British demonstrations by local Nationalists and further threats delivered in Gaelic, I don't blame the English for fearing for their lives and thinking that a peaceful solution coulden't possibly be reached.

Of course, some claim that the crackdowns, confiscation of property of convicted terrorists and their associates, and outlawing of Irish nationalist organizations was tyrannical, and that local 'encouragement' for the Catholic population to go live in the South if they hated British life SO much was a hate crime... but there was so much violence commited by both side that somebody had to do something. At the very least, it provided a template for the British to mediate the clash between the Greeks and Turks over Cyprus/Kibris in the 70's
 
I would like to add my tuppence worth - that during this period of time the most evil thing that could happen to an Irishman was another Irishman - like the earlier Civil war (which us 'Irish' like to forget about) more people - some say as many as 3 x as many - died at the hands of another Irishman - than died at the hands of a British Soldier.

But it is far more convenient (as it was taught to generations of Irish Children after the 2 Great wars) to blame the damned English for everything that went wrong during both periods of Irish History.

I guess it was necessary to try to heal those rifts in Irish society at the time - but to ignore it now and still believe the same thing is disingenuous.

Before the invasion my Great Uncle had been murdered in Galway simply because he had fought in the British Army in the first Great war - brave brave men murdering a one armed half blind veteren simply because he was a local leader of the Irish Legion (basically the Royal British Legion in Southern Ireland).

This more than anything else is why this particular Irishman was born an Englishman - as my Grandfather went into 'exile' with his entire family (my mother was born in England as a result) in 38 following the death of his Brother and it was not until his death in the 70s that anyone from my family returned to the Republic.

My opinion is while I am totally in agreement that their were many civil abuses by the British as a result of the invasion (English students are taught about these abuses as part of their History syllabus - not an easy lesson to absorb when you are 12 years old) I do not believe that any of it was planned or ordered and the subsequent flare up of sectarian violence in the north while badly handled by HMG then and to a lesser extent again in the 70s occurred suddenly and unexpectedly.

The nonsense about Churchill ordering the Murder of Civilians within 20 miles of a given treaty port is nothing but rabid unsupportable lies oft repeated so many times by any extreme republican that it's become fact in the eyes of many.

For a start he was quite busy trying to win the war against the real butchers and for another thing local Census of 1937 and 1957 has more or less the same families living in those locations and a population rise - bit of an achievement if they had all been murdered in 1940!
 
Top