DBWI: No "War of Southern Aggression"

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Pyramus, Aug 2, 2017.

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Should we retcon the rapid end to the Great War

Poll closed Aug 26, 2017.
  1. Yes

    54.5%
  2. No

    45.5%
  1. avernite Well-Known Member

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    OOC: I think Germany is still pretty explicitly a good place; France is perhaps too extremist, but Germany and many of the more neutral European powers are pretty good. The Ottomans and China seem to be your generic autocratic-but-ok places (think Wilhelmine Germany without the rampant militarism, or maybe Kekkonen's Finland?). And Canapac seems pretty imilar to Germany.

    It's just that the good guys have a hell of a time reforming a thoroughly poisoned US political scene, that will take decades to reform (and, in due time, explicit Equalism can take a place there too).
     
  2. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: I'd...really oppose that idea. Quasi-Equalist beliefs, sure, maybe, especially if they're rooted in American culture or religious values. I've written a lot, though, about how much these people probably hate Equalism.

    Things Equalism is Responsible For in the American Public Consciousness:
    • Nuclear War (Partially)
    • Rizzoism (Which is probably going to be conflated with all Equalism, and you can go to the worldbuilding thread to see just how anti-democratic and authoritarian Rizzoism is meant to be)
    • The attempted forced conversion of the entire country against all American values and completely disregarding American wishes in the matter
    • The destruction of the United States
    • The evil farce that is forced racial equality (For many at this early stage)
    • The freeing of the negroes and all of the crimes that their bestial stock will enact upon the whites (Horrifically racist, but it's part of the general Equalist-hatred for a good many people)
    • The enslaving and soul-rewriting of entire countries (Not necessarily true, but it may as well be true for Americans)
    • Obnoxious levels of hypocrisy.
    • Reviving the FSA (Not only does this go against all kinds of American racist sensibilities, it also was completely unwanted and done as an autocratic measure, and symbolizes an attempt to bring back an abolitionist sentiment that doesn't really exist anymore with an on-the-nose name change)
    • The dehumanization of the American nation for their racial beliefs (This one's pretty debatable, but it's going to stick hard)
    • Acting as an existential threat to the very human condition itself
    • Destroying large portions of the former country (Something that the Americans remember VERY well)
    • Nuking Atlantic City by accident and then literally not giving a shit about it and joking around about it on TV
    • The USAs being puppeted by those fucking Canadians (Not entirely true, but it's close enough to true)
    Equalism to Americans is this timeline's Nazism or Stalinism.

    I can't stress that enough.

    You might get a really nice American republic sometime in the future, ideals of equality might spread to one degree or another, things might end up really happy - But you can bet they won't be thanking the Equalists for any of it.

    Honestly, most people's opinions will probably be "We could have become less racist and authoritarian anyway over time if those fucking Equies hadn't meddled in our affairs, imagine how great the USA could have been if those fucking monsters and lunatics hadn't fucked it up!" or, at best "Yeah, it's probably best the USA fell, but that's like the one good thing the Equies did, and really, you have to look at it in perspective of how horrible they are."

    I could easily see the states of Egalitarian!America entering an Anti-Equalist alliance sometime down the line, for one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  3. avernite Well-Known Member

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    OOC: France was crushed by Nazis and got a good chunk of collaborators to help the Germans, half of Europe got conquered by the USSR and yet still has Socialist parties, and so on. Equalism is too huge to exclude entirely from the USA, especially a splintered USA where there is no single political discourse to keep it a dirty word.

    And the Equalists will help it along - they'll be like 'sure the Totalists/French/... are terrible, but... we're not' (See OTL distinction between socialism and communism). And there are a LOT of Equalists; many of the nations closest to the US culturally (Canapac, Europe) are Equalist to one or the other degree, and will inform them that hating Equalism rather than its excesses is stupid.
     
  4. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: How would China and friends (the Shanghai Pact) be viewed by the average American, then? On one hand, they orbitally bombarded St. Louis (to be fair, it was one of the remaining hubs of communication and transportation and contained the HQ of one of the largest remaining American field formations) but on the other hand, they have a more lenient occupation policy towards the former USA.
     
  5. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: How would China and friends (the Shanghai Pact) be viewed by the average American, then? On one hand, they orbitally bombarded St. Louis (to be fair, it was one of the remaining hubs of communication and transportation and contained the HQ of one of the largest remaining American field formations) but on the other hand, they have a more lenient occupation policy towards the former USA.
     
  6. Halocon Bay Area Badhistorian

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    [They're nonwhite and bombed/occupied America. They're just as reviled. We need to accept that America will not work with either bloc and that victory was a poisoned chalice; there is no other way to go about this.]
     
  7. Halocon Bay Area Badhistorian

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    [Speaking of America, here are some plans I’ve thought of after Delta's posts.]

    New Canaan, Connecticut, Free States of America
    One week after EIF 20th Session

    The Krauts had betrayed them! Them and the revolution they claimed to advance!

    That was the only thing that Mike Burton had thought about for the past two weeks. When the Equintern made headway into the old FSA, Burton and his comrades had hoped that the revolution would finally reach America, and freedom would ring from every hill and mountainside.

    But it was not to be.

    The slavers' propaganda and brainwashing had run far deeper than they thought, and after some destructive mishaps on the part of France and a surprise attack from China and the Turks, America-that-was was now up in arms about the "Equalist syndies who hate real freedom and took our property" and the "damned Shanghai colored savages who're lording over proper white folk." Mike despised every goddamned word of those screeds, but there was quite literally nothing he could do about it. Not him or any other Equalist in America.

    Unless...

    Lang's words came back to him. The Constitution, the Enlightenment, uniting the lower classes against the plantation owners... and maybe the outsiders.

    Mike smiled. An eye for an eye makes America free.

    He grabbed his phone and called up Al and Charlie. They would meet in an hour.



    "A'right boys, if we can’t call ourselves Equies or act like them, let's not."
    "So what will we act like?"
    Matt grinned and took out a piece of lined paper he'd written copiously on.

    "Good old Jimmy Madison and Johnny Locke."

    [Alright, here's a plan for the former American Equies: moderation and nationalism, maybe even calling for the restoration of the Union.]
     
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  8. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Wouldn't people be able to pretty easily figure out the "rebranding", especially in the Internet age? It seems like it would make more sense as a counter-movement than merely as a new strategy for the Equalists.
     
  9. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    OOC: Haven't posted here in a while but... how come? I mean: OTL Germany turned out to be just fine after the occupation and was cemented firmly alongside the West. Why not have the same here: a thoroughly democratic FSA that utterly reviles the old ideology?
     
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  10. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: Nazism was a thing for roughly two decades. Americanism has existed for over two centuries, and it's become the absolute default culture. I've written a bit on just how intertwined the average white American is with "Americanism". Americanism may as well be reality.

    On top of that, the reason why the US fell can't be demonstrably linked to the failings of its culture. Instead, most people are likely to blame two cartoonishly evil Presidents and a hostile world for it, which is frankly a lot easier and in some ways more logical than blaming the failings of the society their great-great-grandparents grew up in. This isn't a Nazism situation, and it really isn't comparable. Inverted totalitarianism mixed with a radical divergence in cultural norms is not going to just "go away".
     
  11. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    OOC: Fair point, though in that case wouldn't the reaction be less resistance and more national PTSD? I mean: these people thought they were invincible and superior and have now had their whole world ripped away. They'd be shell-shocked as a nation...which would make them more susceptible to guidance by external factors.

    The situation in this case would actually be similar to Japan post-defeat.
     
  12. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: ...How? The Japanese Empire only lasted for about eighty years, which isn't even close to comparable, and I would agree with you that the country would likely be struck with PTSD, perhaps even making them more susceptible to "external factors", but they certainly aren't going to get anywhere close to the ideology and nations that traumatized them, stole their lives, and are (seemingly) trying to enslave the world based on false equality in the first place.

    They've had their whole world taken away, so I sincerely doubt they're going to hand over their minds and country to the people who took everything away to begin with, especially considering that Aphrodite and Stanny act as scapegoats for many to use to blame their defeat on instead of on their greater culture/society, which discourages introspection and questioning of centuries-long-held national values.
     
  13. theg*ddam*hoi2fan Beware of the Leopard

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    OOC: The Japanese Empire lasted for eighty years, but the worldview that the war changed - more militaristic, the idea of being the world's foremost people - was much older. Older than TTL's US.

    At the very least, these people will become hardcore pacifists because militarism will be seen as the reason for their defeat, and the military failed them when they needed it.
     
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  14. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: But it wasn't the military that failed them - It was Stanny and Aphrodite. The military were the people fighting for their values against the very same bastards trying to puppet them and systematically tear apart everything they've ever accomplished.

    You're not getting an Equalist or Equalist-friendly post-USA.
     
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  15. Halocon Bay Area Badhistorian

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    [It's far deeper than a rebranding, and not many people know who these guys are. In any case, it will be months to years before they gain traction; now that you mention it, they may just join a party founded by people with the same idea as them who aren't Equalists and add some of their ideas to it.]
     
  16. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: That's kind of a terrible idea, and one that I really can't see succeeding. OTL, Trotskyists are constantly trying entryist tactics, basically all the time, and it never seems to get them anywhere. Also, I don't see how it's "far deeper" than a rebranding, if they literally had a meeting (one that you wrote up) where they describe how they're changing names and stuff.

    Also, allow me to share a revelation I've had. A hilarious revelation. I'm sure that most of the people in this thread dislike neoconservatism. I do, personally, I'd consider myself a liberal. This board tends to skew left, anyway. However, Equalism, despite the "Equitern", pseudo-Marx founding father, and such...It's almost identical to neoconservatism. If I brought up a philosophy that prizes moral ideals, conceptualizes the world in terms of a battle of ideologies (even after their main enemy is gone), obsessively seeks to spread their ideology, and has ties to Marxism, I could easily be talking about either Cheneyesque neoconservatism or Equalism. This doesn't just apply to the ill-defined French variation of Equalism either, it applies to Canadian Equalism just as well. The only differences between War on Terror Republicanism and Canadian Equalism are the name of the enemy, whether or not free markets are a main priority, and a commitment to social justice.

    Otherwise, their foreign policy is more or less identical. Horseshoe theory at work. God, the irony is delicious.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 9:04 PM
  17. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: Maybe we can have conservative elements in post-war America engage in the war crimes denial/apologism the Japanese right-wing is (in)famous for.
     
  18. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    OOC: Maybe we can have conservative elements in post-war America engage in the war crimes denial/apologism the Japanese right-wing is (in)famous for.
     
  19. RiverDelta Well-Known Member

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    OOC: If people keep suggesting that any sizable fraction of the USA would be in support of Equalists, I'm leaving the thread.

    I wrote this earlier, then deleted it, but fuck:


    EDIT: Honestly, that plus the rather cult-like nature of Equalism's modus operandi, even and especially with the nominally good "Canadian" Equalism, makes me deeply afraid and uncomfortable.

    We're treating the Equalists as the good guys, but I would argue that they're really closer to the Borg than anything else. The Borg as run by Dick Cheney and following the ideals of the moderate OTL left. The Equintern is fucking evil. I'm sorry, but the fact that nobody seems to acknowledge how manipulative, controlling, assimilation-obsessed, dominating, moralizing, hypocritical, and cult-like the "good guys" truly are because everyone here seems to be rooting for them is kind of terrifying.

    Equalism is evil, second only to the Holy Alliance in terms of evil. I respect what Equalism's shooting for, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and the Equalists have proven that they're willing to sin and sacrifice a seemingly infinite number of souls for a better world, a world under their command.

    In other words, Equalism wants to take over the world and doesn't care who it has to subjugate or murder in the process. That almost sounds evil, doesn't it?

    If we don't acknowledge this, I honestly might end up leaving this thread. I'm that creeped out by Equalism.
     
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  20. redditredcoat216 Polan cannot into space if there is no poland

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    Yeah that makes perfect sense tbh.