DBWI: No Operation Vegetarian

As we know, after the fall of the Soviet Union to the Nazis, the UK launched 'Operation Vegetarian' dropping anthrax-infected cakes into Germany, devastating Europe. How different would the world be today if the UK had not done this?
 
Well, for starters, the Germans wouldn't have launched dozens of V2 missiles with Sarin and Tabun warheads into London as retaliation.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well, for starters, the Germans wouldn't have launched dozens of V2 missiles with Sarin and Tabun warheads into London as retaliation.
To no effect though, lacking VT fuses they couldn't disperse properly. What was more effective was the gathering and dropping of British anthrax cakes on the British countryside; it wasn't nearly as effective due to the lower numbers, but it did damage and the spores linger to this day and still cause outbreaks.

But the worst effects were the tens of millions of deaths all over Europe and the reviling of Britain and the US as a result, plus all the massive economic damage that resulted that impacted everyone post war. It was an awful decision and it overshadowed the horrors of the Holocaust by killing far more people can causing much more lasting damage.
 
The differences between Hitler and Churchill were wafer-thin at times, and any man who ordered Vegetarian with the same deranged enthusiasm as Churchill deserves the scorn history gives them, but with the Soviet Union knocked out (for a while), the US still neutral(officially, at the time), and Tube Alloys still years away from developing the Bomb, Vegetarian was probably the only devastating thing Britain could do directly to Germany at the time. The damage inflicted on Germany, and the loathing the occupied countries developed towards Germany for seizing their food supplies, gave Fortress Europe the needed cracks for eventual victory. The alternative was Nazi Germany ruling Europe for the rest of the 20th Century. In other words, no alternative at all.
 

Deleted member 1487

The differences between Hitler and Churchill were wafer-thin at times, and any man who ordered Vegetarian with the same deranged enthusiasm as Churchill deserves the scorn history gives them, but with the Soviet Union knocked out (for a while), the US still neutral(officially, at the time), and Tube Alloys still years away from developing the Bomb, Vegetarian was probably the only devastating thing Britain could do directly to Germany at the time. The damage inflicted on Germany, and the loathing the occupied countries developed towards Germany for seizing their food supplies, gave Fortress Europe the needed cracks for eventual victory. The alternative was Nazi Germany ruling Europe for the rest of the 20th Century. In other words, no alternative at all.
As opposed to the spores spreading to occupied countries as they did? It wasn't just a matter of beating Germany, but then dealing with the effects of the uncontrolled spread of the spores all over the continent and impacting everyone.
 
The differences between Hitler and Churchill were wafer-thin at times, and any man who ordered Vegetarian with the same deranged enthusiasm as Churchill deserves the scorn history gives them, but with the Soviet Union knocked out (for a while), the US still neutral(officially, at the time), and Tube Alloys still years away from developing the Bomb, Vegetarian was probably the only devastating thing Britain could do directly to Germany at the time. The damage inflicted on Germany, and the loathing the occupied countries developed towards Germany for seizing their food supplies, gave Fortress Europe the needed cracks for eventual victory. The alternative was Nazi Germany ruling Europe for the rest of the 20th Century. In other words, no alternative at all.

Well, I think many in both the UK and Europe disagree with you. The American public and government was greatly shock at what the UK did and things between the two never fully recovered. They a reason why they was so much distrust and problems between the two after the US join the war.

Maybe some of the Empire would still be around, and not just a few islands here and they.
 
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Well its not like the British had not warned them after the Germans had used Chemical Weapons in their failed attack on Malta in Dec 40 and during Rommel's North African counter attack in April 41 (particularly in the attempt to take Tobruk) and then subsequently very liberal use on Russian forces in the summer of 41 which caused major units to break and run during Barbarossa.

At each time the British had warned the Germans of the consequences via their Switzerland and Swedish missions

With regards to use of such weapons in Russia some historians have suggested that the Axis forces might have been just as successful without first use of Chemical weapons and given that some areas had to be bypassed or units had to wait for the chemicals to disperse caused delay (and even casualties) that the Russian units might not have been able to inflict at the time.

But for the most part the Russian units were ill prepared for the use of Chemical weapons.

In my opinion use of those weapons is a terrible thing and what have you what choice did Britain have?

Germany had shown that it was quite willing to use Chemical weapons on Military and Civilian targets and there is simply reams of data that proves that once the Germans had finished with the Russians they would have done the same thing to Britain in time and much data has surfaced to suggest that the British intelligence services knew this at the time.

The British knew what was coming and acted in self defence and at the end of the day anything would have been preferable to a Nazi dominated Europe.
 
Germany had shown that it was quite willing to use Chemical weapons on Military and Civilian targets and there is simply reams of data that proves that once the Germans had finished with the Russians they would have done the same thing to Britain in time and much data has surfaced to suggest that the British intelligence services knew this at the time.

The British knew what was coming and acted in self defence and at the end of the day anything would have been preferable to a Nazi dominated Europe.

Adding to that, there's a lot of politicising around what solid evidence we have to the extent the Nazis were planning to go to with the Holocaust, but what we do know, to me, justifies the least damaging measure to ensure Germany's defeat, no matter how desperate the situation was. Most historians attribute 6-8 million deaths to the Holocaust before the breakdown of society in Germany, the bulk being done in the Gas Chambers. That doesn't reach the same level as Vegetarian or Stalin's famines, but understanding the sheer numbers on Hitler's kill-list and the fact that he didn't get to go through with it, unlike Churchill or Stalin, helps to weigh in the counterfactuals. I would certainly classify the gassing of innocents as chemical warfare, and here they did not have the excuse of requiring that little more devastation to attain victory, in fact they did not need victory at all, they were indulging their bigotry more than fighting an actual threat. If Allied victory was possible without Vegetarian and the chaos that followed, one of the big bonuses would be the chance to more thoroughly document and investigate the Holocaust, perhaps we would have mountains of evidence to fight against Holocaust denial, instead of mere heaps of evidence.
 
As opposed to the spores spreading to occupied countries as they did? It wasn't just a matter of beating Germany, but then dealing with the effects of the uncontrolled spread of the spores all over the continent and impacting everyone.

How did the spores spread anyway? I mean, they tested a variety on some Scottish island and they didn't spread. Was this an even more virulent strain or was the condition actually contagious?
 

Deleted member 1487

How did the spores spread anyway? I mean, they tested a variety on some Scottish island and they didn't spread. Was this an even more virulent strain or was the condition actually contagious?
The island was far enough away so as not to be able to spread to the main island. That was the point of why that island was selected. Wind carries it, people exposed carry it, spores stick to things, infected people move around and spread the activated disease, etc.
People dying of the disease after exposure can infect others handling the body too and soil remains contaminated basically forever unless disinfected to death, which kills the soil.
 
Vegitarian saved the lives of at least three million jews.

The disruption that it caused gave many jews in europe the chance they needed to flee to safety. It also gave poland just enough breathing room to secretly rearm. It was a harsh ugly thing but with the remains of the soviet union in civil war after the death of Stalin and with out the US in the game it was a horrible nessity.

Church hill made the hard but nessary choice like the US choice to nuke japan. The Axis had gone mad, and the allies didn't have any choice.
 
But the worst effects were the tens of millions of deaths all over Europe and the reviling of Britain and the US as a result,

I still can't figure out why America gets as much hate as Britain. The US government did their best to dissuade Churchill from going through with it, and after it happened, America broke all diplomatic ties with the UK.
 

Deleted member 1487

I still can't figure out why America gets as much hate as Britain. The US government did their best to dissuade Churchill from going through with it, and after it happened, America broke all diplomatic ties with the UK.
OOC: I've read the cakes for the spores were made in the US. Can't find the source ATM, but I'm quite sure I've read that. So if that happened IOTL and happens ITTL that is why in character I wrote that.
 
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