DBWI: No Louis XVI ?

[Feunoyr]

Louis XVI, King of France (1751-1835) is known as one of the greatest kings of the French monarchy, at least in the eyes of those who are the loyal subjects of his majesty Louis XXI and recognize his divine right to reign over our kingdom. For dissidents, liberals and other self-proclaimed "sons of liberty", he was a bloody tyrant responsible for the massacre of those who tried to destroy the social order and the power held for centuries by the monarchy, the church and the nobility, during the so-called "royal terror" (1790-1797). His successors have always defended the divine right of kings, and France still holds this way today despite international criticism.
If Louis XVI had died as a child, like his young brother Louis-Auguste, how would modern France have been changed? Would the absolute French Monarchy become a constitutional monarchy as in England? I ask this question on this forum because, in my country, it would be considered a crime of lése majesté and I am not an aristocrat, so I take the risk to spend a decade in jail...

 

[WillVictoria]

Louis XVI & Marie Charlotte* are my favorite badass royal couple. Charlotte is perhaps the greatest consort of the time, known as Charlotte I for how involved she was, being the King's top advisor. Her influence on her children was legendary, with the future Louis XVII calling his parents "partners in business, with moments of pleasure obligated by the succession".

If Charlotte's ATL husband doesn't accept her and let her be the amazing Queen she was IOTL it'd be a tragedy for us all.

(OOC: Marie Charlotte is Maria Carolina, OTL Queen of Naples. Let's say her sister Maria Josepha lives and marries the King of Naples, moving Charlotte into Antoinette's spot in France)

 

[Whiteshore]

His successors have always defended the divine right of kings, and France still holds this way today despite international criticism.

Well, France is allied with Qing/North China with France basing its current meritocratic-technocratic absolutist regime on the Qing Empire. Even if France says it is "under the divine right of kings", it is far closer to a "dictatorship of the bureaucracy".

 

[connorCD]

Well I'm sure that the relations between France and the Columbian Confederation[1] wouldn't be as tense if something like the royal terror didn't happen. Though I can't be too sure of that.

[1] TTL's USA

 

[alexmilman]

Louis XVI, King of France (1751-1835) is known as one of the greatest kings of the French monarchy, at least in the eyes of those who are the loyal subjects of his majesty Louis XXI and recognize his divine right to reign over our kingdom. For dissidents, liberals and other self-proclaimed "sons of liberty", he was a bloody tyrant responsible for the massacre of those who tried to destroy the social order and the power held for centuries by the monarchy, the church and the nobility, during the so-called "royal terror" (1790-1797). His successors have always defended the divine right of kings, and France still holds this way today despite international criticism.
If Louis XVI had died as a child, like his young brother Louis-Auguste, how would modern France have been changed? Would the absolute French Monarchy become a constitutional monarchy as in England? I ask this question on this forum because, in my country, it would be considered a crime of lése majesté and I am not an aristocrat, so I take the risk to spend a decade in jail...

It is quite obvious that, with all problems he inherited, rule of a lesser figure could easily result in any number of the social disasters from constitutional monarchy (look at the personalities of so-called British royalties and their prime ministers for the last couple centuries .... eeek) and all the way to a revolution with its inevitable bloodshed, civil and foreign wars and various types of scumbags ending up on the top. So-called “royal terror” was a child play in comparison. So he ordered execution of few unsavory types (mostly lawyers, for which his subjects should be only grateful) and used the troops to maintain law and order. Probably less than a thousand people died but a cost of a milder policy would be in the hundreds of thousands.

It is rather unfortunate that “Great” was already (mis)used on Louis XIV who, with all his achievements, left France almost destroyed economically and politically. Unlike his predecessor, Louis XVI managed to keep France almost completely out of the major wars and the only one in which France was involved during his reign was for a noble cause, helping the American colonists (the true “sons of liberty”) to get freedom from a cruel British oppression. And of course destruction of Portsmouth was a brilliant military action which not only forced Britain to ask for peace but in a long run helped countries of Continental Europe to expand their own maritime trade. By the end of his reign France had a healthy economy, was at peace with all neighbors and had been considered the most prosperous country in Europe.

 

[isabella]

Louis XVI & Marie Charlotte* are my favorite badass royal couple. Charlotte is perhaps the greatest consort of the time, known as Charlotte I for how involved she was, being the King's top advisor. Her influence on her children was legendary, with the future Louis XVII calling his parents "partners in business, with moments of pleasure obligated by the succession".

If Charlotte's ATL husband doesn't accept her and let her be the amazing Queen she was IOTL it'd be a tragedy for us all.

(OOC: Marie Charlotte is Maria Carolina, OTL Queen of Naples. Let's say her sister Maria Josepha lives and marries the King of Naples, moving Charlotte into Antoinette's spot in France)

(OOC: Maria Antonia was the only candidate for the French match from the beginning, if Carolina was ever taken in consideration she would not be offered as choice for the King of Naples. France valued mostly beauty and Antonia was without doubt the most beautiful between the younger daughters of Maria Theresa. But maybe Antonia died and Caroline replaced her?)

 

[Whiteshore]

Anyways, your thoughts on how the French Kingdom, despite being de jure an absolute monarchy under the divine right of kings, is de facto a meritocratic-technocratic oligarchy/"dictatorship of the bureaucracy"?

 

[Feunoyr]

Anyways, your thoughts on how the French Kingdom, despite being de jure an absolute monarchy under the divine right of kings, is de facto a meritocratic-technocratic oligarchy/"dictatorship of the bureaucracy"?

Since the reign of Charles X "the Mandarin of the West" known for his long friendship with the Chinese Emperor Kanglong (He literally saved the Qing by sending French troops during the Chinese Civil War) the French system was much inspired by the Chinese model yes ... But in France, unlike north china, the nobility and the church hold some political power and a very important economic influence. The vast majority of public offices, in the royal court of Versailles as in society or in the army, are reserved for the nobles. The Duke of Noaille is Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Prince of Conde is the grand admiral of France, the bishop of Nante governor of Brittany ...

 

[HIM Dogson]

I'm wondering how a different monarch would have handled the Saint-Domingue Crisis. Admittedly it came at a good time during the War of the British Revolution, but Louis's deal with Toussaint to free the slaves not only made France the most enlightened country on earth but also the master of the Caribbean. Hell, there was even a proposed invasion of the American south that the King had to torpedo. A different King could have led to the whole thing degenerating into a race war.

 

[Dolan]

I'm wondering how a different monarch would have handled the Saint-Domingue Crisis. Admittedly it came at a good time during the War of the British Revolution, but Louis's deal with Toussaint to free the slaves not only made France the most enlightened country on earth but also the master of the Caribbean. Hell, there was even a proposed invasion of the American south that the King had to torpedo. A different King could have led to the whole thing degenerating into a race war.

To the French Aristocracy, personal loyalty, guaranteed by Divine Rights, is Paramount.

There is no difference in race or background, if you were loyal to your superior, you will be rewarded for it. Even if you come from Christianized Algerian Herder, if you serve competently and loyally, you will be enobled and your descendants will reap the benefits.

Those nobles who found to be incompetent getting booted out and have their titles yanked helps too.

 

[Whiteshore]

Those nobles who found to be incompetent getting booted out and have their titles yanked helps too.

Don't forget the rigorous civil service exams copy-pasted from China (both the Qing in the North and the Yan in the South still maintain the Imperial Examination).

 

[Dolan]

Don't forget the rigorous civil service exams copy-pasted from China (both the Qing in the North and the Yan in the South still maintain the Imperial Examination).

Yeah, but it was kind of basically self-strengthening the nobles as they are the one having access to proper University education without getting into top 2% of The Dreaded Final Exam of the 9th grade.

Yes, those in 2% of National Final Exam end up receiving Free Higher Education, while most of noble children end up paying for their University fees. Having Their University title being equal to the old Knightly titles helped too.

Forcing 14-15 years old to understood that high level of Mathematics, Science, and Philosophy is hard to even think for most people outside Francophones and Sinophones, yet French Universities has been always scoring either first or second best in the world for their achievement of published journals and academic competitions.

Yes, I'm aware that students are monitored for their loyalties too, some high profile *erasure* has been documented happened on those who criticize the French dictatorship.

 

[HIM Dogson]

To the French Aristocracy, personal loyalty, guaranteed by Divine Rights, is Paramount.

There is no difference in race or background, if you were loyal to your superior, you will be rewarded for it. Even if you come from Christianized Algerian Herder, if you serve competently and loyally, you will be enobled and your descendants will reap the benefits.

Those nobles who found to be incompetent getting booted out and have their titles yanked helps too.

That was true of the continental nobility, yes, but the "Big Whites" on Saint-Domingue (and the small whites, for that matter) were absolutely supporters of the kind of white supremacy that wouldn't look at all unfamiliar to the National Renewal regimes of Russia and Prussia that menaced humanity in the 30s.

Speaking of that war, would a different King have changed the course of the Bourbon-Habsburg Alliance? OTL the French and Habsburg monarchies make up the strongest alliance in the world; could that have changed with a different King?

 

[Dolan]

That was true of the continental nobility, yes, but the "Big Whites" on Saint-Domingue (and the small whites, for that matter) were absolutely supporters of the kind of white supremacy that wouldn't look at all unfamiliar to the National Renewal regimes of Russia and Prussia that menaced humanity in the 30s.

There are rumors about Europeans at Saint-Dominigue intentionally sabotaging primary and secondary schools that was attended mostly by Africans and Mestizos so they will receive lower quality education and thus, never succeed in the National Final Exam, but on the contrary, Elite African-Origin Aristocrats do exists there.

The House of Toussaint, House of Christophe, House of Kanye, and House of Duvalier are still there and always deny if that sort of discrimination existed. Which made you think if the former rumors were true or not.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It is rather unfortunate that “Great” was already (mis)used on Louis XIV

Perhaps. But everyone in the world knows who you refer to when you speak of "Louis the Great". And it ain't the Sun King. Although the French generally refer to Louis XIV as "Louis le Grand" and Louis XVI as "Louis l'Eclair" (Louis the Enlightened)

 

[Dolan]

"Louis l'Eclair" (Louis the Enlightened)

But there's an unproven, yet can't be disproved apocrypha about Louis XVI's nickname being named after the pastry he invented.

Yes, he did invented Éclair when he ordered his chefs to bake small, crispy baguettes, dip them in melted chocolate, custard, and or confectionery, before being served alongside Latte Française.

It often comes as shock to most people that isn't French proper that one of the most delicious pastry and Coffee Ice Cream was invented by such bloody tyrant.

 

[alexmilman]

But there's an unproven, yet can't be disproved apocrypha about Louis XVI's nickname being named after the pastry he invented.

Yes, he did invented Éclair when he ordered his chefs to bake small, crispy baguettes, dip them in melted chocolate, custard, and or confectionery, before being served alongside Latte Française.

It often comes as shock to most people that isn't French proper that one of the most delicious pastry and Coffee Ice Cream was invented by such bloody tyrant.

But let’s be honest: inventing of a popular pastry is more beneficial for a humankind (except for those on a diet) than supporting a bunch of the greedy “philosophers”

 

[WillVictoria]

But let’s be honest: inventing of a popular pastry is more beneficial for a humankind (except for those on a diet) than supporting a bunch of the greedy “philosophers”

Add the fact that his daughters were known as "the pastry princesses" for bringing their dad's pastries and popularizing them all over Europe. In particular, Marie Antoinette, (later Queen of Bavaria and named after Charlotte's sister who died of smallpox) was so fond of them that they're still known as Antonia's in Munich.

Between Louis l'Eclair and his son "the Diamond Dauphin" (who, along with his Neopolitan wife Marie Therese, were credited with popularizing the tiara) the Boubon's certainly had an eye for the finer things in life.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Charlotte I for how involved she was, being the King's top advisor. Her influence on her children was legendary, with the future Louis XVII

There were rumours about the king's paternity of Charlotte's children though. Particularly the younger ones. Wasn't that how the Cardinal de Rohan wound up getting arrested? Admittedly, Louis didn't really care much about it, he was too preoccupied with his own mistress, La Polignac at the time. But it did cause a scandal all the same. Rohan was arrested, tried and banished. Which Louis both allowed and desired, so many historians are unsure what to make of it. Was Charlotte really unfaithful? Was Rohan really her lover? Or was it some devious plot by her and the king to rid themselves of the aumonier?