DBWI : No Japan Conquest of China and subsequent Yamato Dynasty

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Also, what do you think of the tensions between the US and the British Imperial Federation ever since Steve Bannon became US President and Michael Flynn became head of the US military?

It was because British end up taking Alaska for themselves and incorporate them into British Canada. There are still many bad blood over this conquest as US still said "Remember Yukon" as battlecry against British forces.

Anyway, US-Japan treaty of friendship are the only one preventing British Federation to finish off US. Japan-British World War would be fought with nuclear missiles and doom the Earth, and nobody sane would willing to break the Cold Peace. Not even Holy Roman Empire (OOC : Greater German Reich adopting their medieval name again) and Soviet Union would be spared.
 
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It was because British end up taking Alaska for themselves and incorporate them into British Canada. There are still many bad blood over this conquest as US still said "Remember Yukon" as battlecry against British forces.

Anyway, US-Japan treaty of friendship are the only one preventing British Federation to finish off US. Japan-British World War would be fought with nuclear missiles and doom the Earth, and nobody sane would willing to break the Cold Peace. Not even Holy Roman Empire and Soviet Union would be spared.
Well, most people just refer to the place as the "Federation" due to the fact India is nowadays the dominant force in said Federation.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Well, most people just refer to the place as the "Federation" due to the fact India is nowadays the dominant force in said Federation.
The Royal family, which really matters as figureheads and symbols. Are still British even as Mumbai becoming the economic capital of the Federation.

Same goes with everyone calling Japanese Empire. Royal family aside, its the reverse though with Japanese Islanders still firmly in control over the economy and the Navy. The Army and basically everything else is Han dominated with Koreans having grip on their IT sector.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Yes, Sancho (OOC: OTL Samsung) is the main producer of electronics in the Japanese Empire.
Who knows, maybe without Yamato Unification, and without American civil war, it would be Americans leading the electronics and IT instead of Kenya and Korea. Maybe instead of being shoddy producers of cheap counterfeit devices, Americans would be the leader of quality electronics?
 
One way to keep the Yamato Dynasty from rising is to, well, have Japan jump into the 'Exploit China' bandwagon that was the craze in the 19th Century. This is borderline ASB though, requiring as it would a major shift in Japanese culture. For all that the Japanese are their own unique ethnic group and have their own distinct language, Japanese culture has always held a deep sense of reverence to China, out of the many contributions China had made to Japanese culture and development. The Japanese writing system for instance is based on the Chinese, and one reason the writing reform carried out in the latter half of the 20th Century was conducted with surprising (as far as the west is concerned) ease. Even the Japanese government - the pre-Meiji one rather - was based on China's own, specifically that of the T'ang Dynasty. And while Confucianism was never as big in the Home Islands as it was on the mainland, even that had effects: Japanese reverence for their ancestors, deference to seniority and proper authority, prioritization of the community over the individual...all this was thanks to Confucian - Chinese - influence.

TLDR: make Japan take a colonial stance with regard to China, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to repay China for all their contributions over a thousand to Japanese culture and society.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
One way to keep the Yamato Dynasty from rising is to, well, have Japan jump into the 'Exploit China' bandwagon that was the craze in the 19th Century. This is borderline ASB though, requiring as it would a major shift in Japanese culture.
Maybe you are right too, the reports about how Japanese soldiers marched solemnly to various temples and shrines they took after battle, while offering respect to their shared Eastern Gods and Buddhas are definitely signs that the Japanese seen their conquest as a Holy War to keep Middle Kingdom from being fallen into Western hands. It may sounds superstitions to Westerners, but the various Jizos erected on their campaigns definitely help their morale. Especially with medical center and food supplies given for often illiterate and starving Chinese Peasants. It was either the perfect Propaganda techniques or borne of genuine spiritual desire. So much that in late 1920's majority of "Japanese Army" operating in China are made from Chinese volunteers working under Japanese officers.

Maybe have Japanese army do the treatment reserved to Western Missionaries and Christians IOTL enacted to all Chinese and maybe Koreans too. Instead of just killing Missionaries and forcing Christians to convert or die... maybe they do wholesale slaughter of Chinese villages and cities? Instead of just killing Christians that refused conversion to Eastern religion?

The convert-or-die attitudes to Christians however, is also the one who made American Fascists having love-hate relationship with the Japanese Empire. In one hand, they actively persecute the coreligionists of the fascists, in the other hand, it was well known that Umago Nakayama and Sho Nakatadashi are American style Christians and very unsubtle puppets of the pre civil war US Governments. The US sticking their nose into East Asia too much is often cited as the reasons of the Great Depression and subsequent Civil War.
 
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Maybe you are right too, the reports about how Japanese soldiers marched solemnly to various temples and shrines they took after battle, while offering respect to their shared Eastern Gods and Buddhas are definitely signs that the Japanese seen their conquest as a Holy War to keep Middle Kingdom from being fallen into Western hands. It may sounds superstitions to Westerners, but the various Jizos erected on their campaigns definitely help their morale. Especially with medical center and food supplies given for often illiterate and starving Chinese Peasants. It was either the perfect Propaganda techniques or borne of genuine spiritual desire. So much that in late 1920's majority of "Japanese Army" operating in China are made from Chinese volunteers working under Japanese officers.

I think it was both. For Japanese government leaders and higher-ranking officers it was primarily the former, though even among them in many cases - especially after the Showa Emperor had taken up residence in Hokkyo/Beijing - it was of the latter, out of a sense of awe (?) or conviction that the Emperor of Japan was now also the Son of Heaven. Among the rank and file and junior officers, it was usually the latter.

With regard to helping the populace though, I'd connect it with the ones below...

Maybe have Japanese army do the treatment reserved to Western Missionaries and Christians IOTL enacted to all Chinese and maybe Koreans too. Instead of just killing Missionaries and forcing Christians to convert or die... maybe they do wholesale slaughter of Chinese villages and cities? Instead of just killing Christians that refused conversion to Eastern religion?

The convert-or-die attitudes to Christians however, is also the one who made American Fascists having love-hate relationship with the Japanese Empire. In one hand, they actively persecute the coreligionists of the fascists, in the other hand, it was well known that Umago Nakayama and Sho Nakatadashi are American style Christians and very unsubtle puppets of the pre civil war US Governments. The US sticking their nose into East Asia too much is often cited as the reasons of the Great Depression and subsequent Civil War.

While there were massacres and forced conversions of Christians and missionaries, it was never officially sanctioned, either before or after the assumption of Mandate of Heaven. This was usually the case only with overzealous office Han or Japanese officers, either out of their own xenophobic conviction or influenced by their subordinates, and was always strictly punished. When Japan modernized, and in particular their army one of the things they learned from the Prussians was an appreciation for iron discipline. Troops going out of control was seen as counter to this principle, and when the Mandate of Heaven was assumed...

...well, remember that much of China's destitute state was due to the sheer corruption of both the the republicans and the Qing at the end of their dynasty. Roving bands of soldiers (in name) would loot, steal, and rape their own people, because their officers didn't care or had embezzled the funds needed to feed the troops. Ditto for the civil service, with bureaucrats more interested in enriching themselves and fawning over their superiors and the wealthy while doing only a facade of their duties.

For the Prussian/German-influenced Japanese, the utter mess that were the Qing Armies and later on the so-called 'National Revolutionary Army' were a disgrace, not worth being called a military or even soldiers at all, while the highly-organized Japanese civil service were appalled, especially when one remembers that in China, a functioning civil service was seen as characteristic of a prosperous dynasty secured by the Mandate of Heaven. So when they assumed the Mandate of Heaven (or even before then given the number of corps and field armies the IJA had in northern China maintaining order and largely composed as you said of native volunteer regiments commanded by Japanese officers), they made damn sure out of sense of pride to get proper government and authority back up and running.

I'm not saying the Yamato and the majority of either their Han or Japanese subjects are big fans of Christianity (they aren't), but in the interests of a fair and globally-oriented society and nation, Christianity and other religions are tolerated along with the major ones...though it's preferred they don't meddle in politics. It might be hypocritical, what with Yamato legitimacy anchored in both the Mandate of Heaven and their divine descent from the gods of the Japanese Home Islands, but hey, western politicians swear oaths of office on bibles. Is it really that different?
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
Anyway, let's assume US never get into Second Civil War while French (and some extent Germans) actually thrown their supports behind Republic of China (instead of Kiyoshi dynasty) against Japanese attempts to seize The Mandate of Heaven / Conquer China.

While it will certainly result in the Manchurian Kiyoshi being defeated more quickly than OTL, throwing extra Western supports behind Republic of China might actually changes the course of war. Maybe Republican victory and Japan end up only with Korea and Manchuria instead of the whole China, or even less?

Yes, the Japanese are very popular with Chinese peasants in rural areas, and traditional bureaucratic class that wanted the return to glorious Kofushi's teachings (孔夫子, OTL Confucius), but even with their good works and commitment to order, they are still seen as foreign invaders by the westernized, nationalist minded urban middle class that formed the backbone of the Republican supports (they even deem Kiyoshi dynasty as still foreign barbarians despite ruling them for centuries already), and let's also remember that in many overseas Chinese communities (at that time), the norm is to support the Republic so much that, the news of Japanese invasion of China and subsequent taking of "Mandate of Heaven" is taken very badly, even resulting in Riots where violence is directed against anyone with Japanese descent (not that Chaotic post-civil war state in US help, see the Chinatown-Japantown riot in New York that left both areas in shambles for many years, subsequent remarks by President Huey Long about he can't really know which violent slanty eyed man belongs to which group didn't help). Additional western help by French and Germans to Chinese Republic (instead of just British and crippled US helping them IOTL) may just do the trick to keep Yamato unification of Middle Kingdom from being realized.

A timeline which Japanese end up pushed back to their relaatively resource poor home islands may be interesting in the long run. Maybe they end up being US puppets instead?
 

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There is a lot of Chinese opposition to the Japanese even today. You just don't hear about it due to Imperial Yamato censors and the Iron Firewall. Of course, it doesn't help that the "Holy" Roman Reich and the "Free" States of America are co-ideologues and enablers of Tokyo's imperialism in China.
 
There is a lot of Chinese opposition to the Japanese even today. You just don't hear about it due to Imperial Yamato censors and the Iron Firewall. Of course, it doesn't help that the "Holy" Roman Reich and the "Free" States of America are co-ideologues and enablers of Tokyo's imperialism in China.

Even without the DSO censoring it, that opposition wouldn't reach a majority. The upper classes and the military officer corps are fully behind the Yamato Dynasty, as are the rural populace. It's mostly the urban middle and lower middle-class who are against the Yamato Dynasty.
 
Unless you somehow butterfly away Roosevelt's polio I can't see the Yamato Dynasty not rising in China, President Long and Generalissimo Moseley were very isolationist and anti-British but Roosevelt was known for his anglophilia and his wife was a tad bit on the radical side so a detente with the soviets could be in the picture if someone like Bukharin was chairman. But other than that I can't think of anything
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
There is a lot of Chinese opposition to the Japanese even today. You just don't hear about it due to Imperial Yamato censors and the Iron Firewall. Of course, it doesn't help that the "Holy" Roman Reich and the "Free" States of America are co-ideologues and enablers of Tokyo's imperialism in China.
Yeah, I understood if you said that as either a British Federation or Soviet Union citizens, core ideologies aside, both superpowers are basically seen as true beacons of democracy even if capitalist Federation still too often butt heads and fight skirmishes against those communist Soviets, at least their elections and governments are elected in fair democratic elwctions, demonized each others for economic principles but also respect the others in their commitment to democracy.

And as the five superpowers are still ultimately rational, nobody would like to really break the cold peace between them. British Federation may have the upper hand economy and population wise, but any combinations of two other superpowers will trounce the Federations and then Japanese Empire, Free States of America, and Holy Roman Reich all hates the Federation for their overt promotion of democracy and attempts to meddle in their internal stuffs. Only Soviet Union had the remote chance to stand with The Federations as fellow democratic superpower, but they had problems with basically any capitalistic societies.
 
So, your thoughts on how British Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn has called for an "alliance of democratic nations" to stand up to the "fascist menace" and how he is building up Federation ties with the USSR?
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
So, your thoughts on how British Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn has called for an "alliance of democratic nations" to stand up to the "fascist menace" and how he is building up Federation ties with the USSR?
The problem is Soviet Union are diametrically opposed to any form of Monarchy AND Capitalism, all while previous British Federation PM Narendra Modi swear that as long as there are Indians there will be loyal troops fighting for the King and the Empire. The infusion of many Indian Rajas (Princes) as well as African Princes into House of Lords also meant that any closer works with Soviet Union would risk splitting the Federation in two, which pit the Tory dominated and anti communist Indian and African dominions against socialist Labour minded Canada and Australian dominions. With British Isles proper also torn between half and half.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
OOC: Did this TL actually make sense? The TRUE POD could be different kind of Mad Fanaticism taking Japanese Military. Where they end up with divine-right religious nationalism mix of IOTL, resulting in insane attacks and brutal bloodbath. ITTL they end up with similar, but also different kind of Madness that let them believe the intervention to not letting "Mandate of Heaven" either dying out (by China continue in extended chaos from 19th century), or grabbed by Western Powers.

Japanese fanaticism ITTL took the opposite way, that is valuing East Asian culture and as previously said, the urge to unite and incorporate "All Under Heaven" under one Emperor as the Gods and Buddhas demand that. Even as they knew that in the long run, it would be Han Chinese culture that would be dominant, due to number of population, but they basically accept the Assimilation process while trying to impart as many Japanese cultures into the resulting mix (hence the Japanese used as unifying language and such). Basically what is the endgame of Alexander the Great but done on late 19th to 20th century Empire of Japan.
 
I wondered how japan wasn't assimilated into china as other countries who conquered china( Khitans, Xiongnu, and jurchen) were assimilated to china.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
I wondered how japan wasn't assimilated into china as other countries who conquered china( Khitans, Xiongnu, and jurchen) were assimilated to china.
OOC :

And while this is madness, this isn't exactly ASB, as Alexander the Great did planned that with Greco-Persian assimilation decrees (that failed IOTL but already imparted a lot of things).

ITTL it could be the Japanese Emperors being secretly sinophilic, and while they knew conquering China will result in Japan pushed into Junior partner if not absorbed, they fully expect that. Taking Alexander's cultural assimilation thing and running with it. As they are also seen by common man as descended from Gods, the Imperial Japanese fanaticism took the opposite turn of what they do IOTL. Fully expecting integration and assimilation to Chinese culture as a whole, BUT in turn also trying to improve them with Impartations of Japanese culture. The use of Japanese Languages and Onyomi standard, in lieu of OTL 1950 Chinese Hanyupinyin spelling reform would be one of that, as well as while deliberate moving of Political capital to mainland, still deliberately keep Japanese Isles as Economic center for as long as possible to maintain somewhat superior position, wealth wise so there will be long term or even permanent influence.

Also make sure Chinese peasants believe Japanese Emperor has taken the Mandate of Heaven by being actively doing good works and actually keeping order.

ADD : SUMMARY
Yes Japanese ITTL knew the inevitable absorption in the long run, but thats their actual motivation. Who would say no if Arahitogami wanted to recreate the Glorious East Asia from times of legends?
 
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IC: So, who do you think would replace Bannon once he retires from the Presidency and why? I'd say either Richard Spencer, representing the racial nationalists, or Jeff Bezos, representing the technocratic-reformist faction, would be the most likely successors to Bannon.

OOC: I envision this fascist US to be similar to a right-wing version of the PRC as opposed to an Americanized version of Nazi Germany.
 

ASUKIRIK

Banned
IC: So, who do you think would replace Bannon once he retires from the Presidency and why? I'd say either Richard Spencer, representing the racial nationalists, or Jeff Bezos, representing the technocratic-reformist faction, would be the most likely successors to Bannon.

OOC: I envision this fascist US to be similar to a right-wing version of the PRC as opposed to an Americanized version of Nazi Germany.
The most likely to replace Bannon would be Bezos, he held a stranglehold over technological-financial parts of current day USA, being fifth richest man in the world help a lot.

While Bezos is reformist enough to consider some return of democratic process and human rights, it was unlikely for him to rock the boat too much. Remember that Bezos are among the congress member who signed the death penalty of Mark Zuckerberg, the leader of Faces of Freedom guerilla group who advocating equality between races and open government.
 
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