DBWI: No Fugu Operation

During WWII Japan carried out an operation to take a million Jews from Europe to Manchuria to make the territory productive. Although it didn't come to fruition as Japan lost WW2 and China to the communists it certainly established a bond between Japan and Israel.

What would be the consequences of the Imperial Council rejecting the idea? (Besides obviously 1 million more holocaust deaths)
 

Deleted member 109224

During WWII Japan carried out an operation to take a million Jews from Europe to Manchuria to make the territory productive. Although it didn't come to fruition as Japan lost WW2 and China to the communists it certainly established a bond between Japan and Israel.

What would be the consequences of the Imperial Council rejecting the idea? (Besides obviously 1 million more holocaust deaths)

The presence of the Manchurian Jews presented an issue for Mao. Mao didn't want a million people he deemed foreigners in his country, but on the other hand realized the really really bad optics of throwing out a million Jews right after the Holocaust. Mao also associated Jews with capitalism, because the large Jewish refugee population in Shanghai had gotten into economic activity relatively quickly as they arrived in the 30s and 40s (there being no immigration restrictions on going to Shanghai made Shanghai the natural go-to point for a great many Jews who preferred an urban environment to working the land in Israel). Ultimately the solution was found in the USSR: the Birobidzhan Jewish SSR was bumped up to full SSR and Jews were also authorized to live in Khabarovsk (which was eventually folded into the Jewish SSR) and Vladivostok. The downside of this was, Stalin proceeded to deport all of the rest of the Soviet Union's Jews to Birobidzhan, with the horrible humanitarian cost that came with.

I think more than a million people additional would have died if not for the Fugu Plan. A million people went to Manchuria, but there were other knock-ons. For one, a lot of Jews who hopped on boats to Manchuria instead snuck off to Mandatory Palestine (many of course proceeded to get captured and interned in Cyprus, but then get out of Cyprus by joining the Jewish Brigades in North Africa). Also, the Nazis began organizing the Holocaust following the invasion of the Soviet Union, as they suddenly had millions of Jews under their authority and no place to send them. The Fugu Plan for a time being caused them to delay their mass-killings because they figured the Manchurian option was open. Plus, a great many So a lot of people who in Europe were not killed OTL may not have survived if the Germans had begun their genocide sooner.

As a side-matter, without the Jewish brigades proceeding to head to Palestine after WW2, the Zionist forces probably would have been smaller and not included as many well-trained men. I don't think there'd have been big differences in the boundaries, as Jordan and the Zionists already had their secret agreement about the West Bank. But El-Arish, Gaza, the Golan, Latrun, Kfar Etzion, and the Western Wall may not have ended up Israeli.
 
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it is worth noting that the million or so jews came from the west and brought western ideals of democracy, and China could never put that down. With their large cultural suppression of the manchu people as well as the jews and the government in exile meant the chinese government was seen as hypocritical imperialists by the people, hardly any better than the west or the qing. This is why, soon after Mao died, china descended into chaos again, with the ROC and Yen Chia-kan the ability to reestablish themselves in yunnan and southern china, as the people rebelled and left the prc and just... chaos. the US and USSR declined to get involved fearing the other would use the opportunity to attack them more directly, as well as the fact that the sino-soviet split had just occured and the soviets wanted china to get a taste of what 'betraying the revolution' (i.e leaving the soviet sphere) would mean.

The ROC and the Manchu Democratic State wouldn't exist as we know them, neither would the PRC (as it did still have a lot of inland rural support and managed to survive). A great power prc would mean that north korea wouldn't collapse under its own weight and unite with the sou. I don't know if the Communard Reconciliation would happen and the PRC and Soviet Union would be able to prop each other up.

So... less war in East Asia at least?
 
No Israel, plus probably milder postwar treatment of what was germany after 1946. Perhaps German would have native speakers younger than their 70s.
 

Deleted member 109224

No Israel, plus probably milder postwar treatment of what was germany after 1946. Perhaps German would have native speakers younger than their 70s.

President Morgenthau was not kind to the Germans.

To be accurate, the notion of "German as a mostly-dead language" is a half truth. Standard German is dead, sure. But Rhenish, Swabo-Bavarian, Saxon, and Austrian are still dialects of German even if it's politically incorrect to admit it.

upload_2019-9-29_0-14-14.png


France, Rhineland, BavaroSwabia, and Saxony.
 
Don't forget the cold war crises due to USSR troops in poland facing off against western troops in Denmark or British Hanover. I wonder if the US would have bothered with Korea, Vietnam or Turkey if we weren't busy in the european standoff.
 
President Morgenthau was not kind to the Germans.

To be accurate, the notion of "German as a mostly-dead language" is a half truth. Standard German is dead, sure. But Rhenish, Swabo-Bavarian, Saxon, and Austrian are still dialects of German even if it's politically incorrect to admit it.

View attachment 491275

France, Rhineland, BavaroSwabia, and Saxony.
Would you be? The British and French were right to dismantle them- the german states were nothing but trouble in europe, constantly taking advantage of every slight instance of instability to tear it apart. While some may argue it filled a vaccum in Europe's balance, it did more harm than good.

And what they did to their "lesser peoples," is sickening to all good people. Again, some may argue the british were no better, those people forget what Britain did was only to dissenters and criminals. Not ideal, but not genocide. If it wasn't different, American aid wouldn't have helped rebuild the empire to prevent radicalization in the would be decolonized nations. Same with France.
 

Deleted member 109224

Would you be? The British and French were right to dismantle them- the german states were nothing but trouble in europe, constantly taking advantage of every slight instance of instability to tear it apart. While some may argue it filled a vaccum in Europe's balance, it did more harm than good.

And what they did to their "lesser peoples," is sickening to all good people. Again, some may argue the british were no better, those people forget what Britain did was only to dissenters and criminals. Not ideal, but not genocide. If it wasn't different, American aid wouldn't have helped rebuild the empire to prevent radicalization in the would be decolonized nations. Same with France.

I would not be nice to Germany. If anything, much of Germany got off a bit too easily.

Chopping up Germany, the blame ultimately got pinned on the "Prusso-Saxons" and Austria, Bavaria, and Rhineland were portrayed as states "freed from Junker domination" which is a peculiar narrative given the NSDAP's origins in Bavaria and Hitler's own Austria. The ardent anti-Nazis and pro-western liberals Konrad Adenaur, Ludwig Erhard, and Otto von Hapsburg being the respective faces of post-German Rhineland, Bavaroswabia, and the United States of Greater Austria (Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, and Zakarpattia) helped sell a narrative that these regions were anti-Nazi and dominated by the Prusso-Saxons, but it also helped these countries escape responsibility for their role in the actions of the Reich and the Axis.

Plus, the need to disproportionately milk Saxony for reparations money limited how much land could be given to Poland. Instead of a border on the Oder and Neisse, the border is along the Oder. There were proposals for Stettin and Silesia south of the Oder to be Polish, but those were nixed so that Saxony could be economically productive enough to pay reparations. Odds are, the western boundary of Saxony would be on the Elbe rather than the Weser for similar reasons if so much of the money didn't need to come from Saxony.

The French certainly made good use of the Palatine and Saarland Germans. They stuck them all in Algeria. That was certainly one way to boost the number of people loyal to France...
Morgenthau's biggest mistake was accepting the idea of "to keep Germany down, we must bolster France". He looked the other way as the French seized Aosta, Imperia, Elba, and the eastern slopes of the alps - resulting in Italy going red. It wasn't until the French seized Wallonia during the Royal Crisis induced Belgian Civil war that the US realized that Paris was intent on returning to its old aggressive ways.


With regard to Britain, America pushed decolonization hard in most of the Empire. The areas where the US propped up the British were Malaya, Borneo, the Indian Ocean possessions, Cyprus, Malta, South Arabia, the Gulf Protectorates, Zanzibar, and Hong Kong. The US forced the British out of Africa real quick. The possessions the UK retained were all ones that desired continued British protection which is a pretty big distinction from "the US propped up the British Empire". The one big exception is probably the continued protectorate of Ceylon. But compared to getting out of India and Africa, that's somewhat small. All of these places either wanted to remain British or had very significant strategic implications.

Although, the US perhaps could have pushed harder against the divvying up India into Pakistan, Bharat, Kashmir, and Bengal.
 
I would not be nice to Germany. If anything, much of Germany got off a bit too easily.

Chopping up Germany, the blame ultimately got pinned on the "Prusso-Saxons" and Austria, Bavaria, and Rhineland were portrayed as states "freed from Junker domination" which is a peculiar narrative given the NSDAP's origins in Bavaria and Hitler's own Austria. The ardent anti-Nazis and pro-western liberals Konrad Adenaur, Ludwig Erhard, and Otto von Hapsburg being the respective faces of post-German Rhineland, Bavaroswabia, and the United States of Greater Austria (Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, and Zakarpattia) helped sell a narrative that these regions were anti-Nazi and dominated by the Prusso-Saxons, but it also helped these countries escape responsibility for their role in the actions of the Reich and the Axis.

Plus, the need to disproportionately milk Saxony for reparations money limited how much land could be given to Poland. Instead of a border on the Oder and Neisse, the border is along the Oder. There were proposals for Stettin and Silesia south of the Oder to be Polish, but those were nixed so that Saxony could be economically productive enough to pay reparations. Odds are, the western boundary of Saxony would be on the Elbe rather than the Weser for similar reasons if so much of the money didn't need to come from Saxony.

The French certainly made good use of the Palatine and Saarland Germans. They stuck them all in Algeria. That was certainly one way to boost the number of people loyal to France...
Morgenthau's biggest mistake was accepting the idea of "to keep Germany down, we must bolster France". He looked the other way as the French seized Aosta, Imperia, Elba, and the eastern slopes of the alps - resulting in Italy going red. It wasn't until the French seized Wallonia during the Royal Crisis induced Belgian Civil war that the US realized that Paris was intent on returning to its old aggressive ways.


With regard to Britain, America pushed decolonization hard in most of the Empire. The areas where the US propped up the British were Malaya, Borneo, the Indian Ocean possessions, Cyprus, Malta, South Arabia, the Gulf Protectorates, Zanzibar, and Hong Kong. The US forced the British out of Africa real quick. The possessions the UK retained were all ones that desired continued British protection which is a pretty big distinction from "the US propped up the British Empire". The one big exception is probably the continued protectorate of Ceylon. But compared to getting out of India and Africa, that's somewhat small. All of these places either wanted to remain British or had very significant strategic implications.

Although, the US perhaps could have pushed harder against the divvying up India into Pakistan, Bharat, Kashmir, and Bengal.
Eh, almost all of the old empire is in the commonwealth, an area of "free movement of people, goods, and aid," with a common currency and defense, add in the fact that almost all of the commonwealth has the queen as the head of state, and it's pretty clear the empire lives.

Contrast the Franco-Austrian lovechild of the EU, with neither a free movement zone or common defense and the difference is clear as day.

Plus there is the referendum on Britain and canada uniting, which could mean the beginning of an imperial federation
 
I would not be nice to Germany. If anything, much of Germany got off a bit too easily.

Chopping up Germany, the blame ultimately got pinned on the "Prusso-Saxons" and Austria, Bavaria, and Rhineland were portrayed as states "freed from Junker domination" which is a peculiar narrative given the NSDAP's origins in Bavaria and Hitler's own Austria. The ardent anti-Nazis and pro-western liberals Konrad Adenaur, Ludwig Erhard, and Otto von Hapsburg being the respective faces of post-German Rhineland, Bavaroswabia, and the United States of Greater Austria (Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, and Zakarpattia) helped sell a narrative that these regions were anti-Nazi and dominated by the Prusso-Saxons, but it also helped these countries escape responsibility for their role in the actions of the Reich and the Axis.

Plus, the need to disproportionately milk Saxony for reparations money limited how much land could be given to Poland. Instead of a border on the Oder and Neisse, the border is along the Oder. There were proposals for Stettin and Silesia south of the Oder to be Polish, but those were nixed so that Saxony could be economically productive enough to pay reparations. Odds are, the western boundary of Saxony would be on the Elbe rather than the Weser for similar reasons if so much of the money didn't need to come from Saxony.

The French certainly made good use of the Palatine and Saarland Germans. They stuck them all in Algeria. That was certainly one way to boost the number of people loyal to France...
Morgenthau's biggest mistake was accepting the idea of "to keep Germany down, we must bolster France". He looked the other way as the French seized Aosta, Imperia, Elba, and the eastern slopes of the alps - resulting in Italy going red. It wasn't until the French seized Wallonia during the Royal Crisis induced Belgian Civil war that the US realized that Paris was intent on returning to its old aggressive ways.


With regard to Britain, America pushed decolonization hard in most of the Empire. The areas where the US propped up the British were Malaya, Borneo, the Indian Ocean possessions, Cyprus, Malta, South Arabia, the Gulf Protectorates, Zanzibar, and Hong Kong. The US forced the British out of Africa real quick. The possessions the UK retained were all ones that desired continued British protection which is a pretty big distinction from "the US propped up the British Empire". The one big exception is probably the continued protectorate of Ceylon. But compared to getting out of India and Africa, that's somewhat small. All of these places either wanted to remain British or had very significant strategic implications.

Although, the US perhaps could have pushed harder against the divvying up India into Pakistan, Bharat, Kashmir, and Bengal.
It was pretty hilarious how the Germans and Algerians united in the 1980s to boot the French and pied noirs out of North Africa in the 1980s.
 

Deleted member 109224

The mass emigration of Germans to Arab States that welcomed them with open arms certainly added another testy element to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
 
The nuking of the Oran Freiburg was less amusing, though.
Followed the Soviets nuking the Marseilles afterwards (unbeknownst to the French, nuking Freiburg meant they also nuked two Soviet submarines).

That's the closest we've been to WWIII (at least so far). At least President McGovern managed to get everyone to calm down.
 

Deleted member 109224

Followed the Soviets nuking the Marseilles afterwards (unbeknownst to the French, nuking Freiburg meant they also nuked two Soviet submarines).

That's the closest we've been to WWIII (at least so far). At least President McGovern managed to get everyone to calm down.

I don't think McGovern would have bailed out the French. The American public was absolutely horrified to see the French nuke Freiburg and the French were hardly loyal allies after the US granted independence to the Indochinese Kingdoms rather than return them to France.
 
I don't think McGovern would have bailed out the French. The American public was absolutely horrified to see the French nuke Freiburg and the French were hardly loyal allies after the US granted independence to the Indochinese Kingdoms rather than return them to France.
You're right, darnit, my bad.

That's President Jackson I'm thinking of (I keep on confusing them because then VP Jackson was acting President for a year after McGovern was in that helicopter crash).
 
I don't think McGovern would have bailed out the French. The American public was absolutely horrified to see the French nuke Freiburg and the French were hardly loyal allies after the US granted independence to the Indochinese Kingdoms rather than return them to France.
He wouldn't have had a choice, not when the Frogs still relied on that Dr. Strangelove meganuke of theirs buried in the Auvergne volcanoes. I doubt even McGovern would have bet the US and everyone else on the chance that Soviet FOBS could damage the system fast and hard enough to prevent the Hermit Republic from turning the planet into a radioactive grave. Still... I'm glad we never had to check that out.
 
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