After surviving an assassination attempt, RFK beat the odds and won the 1968 Democratic Presidential nomination. While Nixon had an early polling lead, Kennedy ultimately beat him by a narrow margin. What if Nixon had won instead? How might he have handled Vietnam and the problems of the 1970s differently? What would be his modern legacy?
DBWI: Nixon Beats Kennedy in 1968
- Thread starter Amadeus
- Start date
Remember that Agnew had legal problems that eventually led to him resigning as governor of Maryland. If they catch up to him as Vice President and he resigns from that, who does Nixon pick to replace him? George Bush? Nelson Rockefeller?
PNWKing
Banned
In that Presidents list, Nixon has a scandal over a break in at the Watergate Hotel in DC (the DNC headquarters), and his VP pick to replace Agnew, Gerald Ford, who was a Michigan Representative and higher up in the House, loses to James E. "Jimmy" Carter, the Governor of Georgia. Carter is defeated in 1980 by Ronald Reagan and George Bush (Ford's CIA Director). In 1984, Reagan wins reelection against Carter's Vice President, Walter Mondale. In 1988, George Bush defeats Michael Dukakis. In 1992, Bush is defeated by William J. Clinton due to a third party challenge by H. Ross Perot. In 1996, Clinton defeats Bob Dole whose running mate is Jack Kemp. In 2000, Albert Gore, Jr. the Vice President is defeated by George W. Bush (Bush's son) in an election that features a major recount in Florida. In 2004, Bush defeats Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry. In 2008, Barack Obama, the Senator from Illinois and his running mate Joe Biden, a Senator from Delaware, defeat Arizona Senator John McCain and Alaska Governor Sarah Palin. In 2012, Obama wins reelection against W. Mitt Romney, the former Governor of Massachusetts and Paul Ryan, a Representative from Wisconsin. In 2016, Donald Trump defeats Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and her running mate Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia, after a scandal about her emails resurfaces 11 days after the election.
1. President Donald Trump??? He is currently living at the Federal Penitentiary for money laundering. Who would be Trump's Vice President? Ted Turner?
2. Jimmy Carter was Governor of Georgia (1971-1979) and elected to the US Senate in 1980 where he served until he retired in 2010.
3. I think the older George Bush served as a US Senator from Texas. Am I right?
4. Bill Clinton the famous saxophonist as President? ROFL
5. Why would Hillary Rodham marry Bill Clinton?
6. I believe that Hussein Obama was Vice President of Kenya. Is Barack his son?
2. Jimmy Carter was Governor of Georgia (1971-1979) and elected to the US Senate in 1980 where he served until he retired in 2010.
3. I think the older George Bush served as a US Senator from Texas. Am I right?
4. Bill Clinton the famous saxophonist as President? ROFL
5. Why would Hillary Rodham marry Bill Clinton?
6. I believe that Hussein Obama was Vice President of Kenya. Is Barack his son?
PNWKing
Banned
1. Mike Pence of Indiana. Formerly Governor, US Representative, and a talk show host.
2. Carter runs for President because of Watergate.
3. Yes, but in that TL Bush is also CIA Director, UN Ambassador, and Vice President
4. Clinton continues to study law and becomes Attorney General of and ultimately Governor of Arkansas before running for President.
5. Hillary Rodham married Bill Clinton because he became a lawyer.
6. Barack is his son. He marries Stanley Ann Dunham in Hawaii. His son moves to Illinois as an adult and runs for Senate, ultimately winning in a bizarre sex scandal.
2. Carter runs for President because of Watergate.
3. Yes, but in that TL Bush is also CIA Director, UN Ambassador, and Vice President
4. Clinton continues to study law and becomes Attorney General of and ultimately Governor of Arkansas before running for President.
5. Hillary Rodham married Bill Clinton because he became a lawyer.
6. Barack is his son. He marries Stanley Ann Dunham in Hawaii. His son moves to Illinois as an adult and runs for Senate, ultimately winning in a bizarre sex scandal.
OOC: This sort of thing sucks the fun out of DBWIs, imo. The fun comes from counterfactuals being the norm to the point nobody would even fathom what happened IRL being a possibility.
IC: If RFK had lost in ‘68 rather than having turned down running for re-election, maybe the 3-4 serious attempts to draft him whenever it seemed the Democrats had no other good choices (like in ‘76, ‘84, ‘88, and ‘92), wouldn’t have happened. The DNC bent over backwards to try to entice Kennedy to pull a Cleveland but he never did. I doubt the same would be true if he lost.
Hillary Rodham is the President in 2016 as a republican, having her marry Bill Clinton will change that..
There's always Gerald Ford. If he can't accomplish his dream of being Speaker, VP wouldn't be bad. But I doubt he becomes President unless Nixon was forced out of office somehow. 1976 probably sees Nixon's new VP lose to some Democrat due to the poor economy. Maybe RFK makes a bicentennial comeback?
Running the VP to an unpopular former President would be suicidal for the Dems. The 1984 nominee in that scenario is more likely to be Hart or Ted Kennedy. I'm surprised that EMK never ran for President - with brother Bobby's help, Ted cleaned up his act in the 1970s and largely eschewed his former playboy image. I guess he just didn't want the job, even in 1980 when he probably would've beaten Reagan's VP.
You mean John Anderson? Teddy might’ve kept it closer than Jerry Brown for sure, but I’m just not seeing how any Dem would’ve beaten the VP to someone as popular as Reagan without ASB.
Remember that the economy wasn't good in 1980, and Brown initially lead Anderson in the polls. It wasn't until Brown opened his mouth that people were turned off to him. Had Pennsylvania, Illinois, and California flipped to the Democrats Brown would've won. So I think Kennedy could've beaten Anderson. This would butterfly away Gary Hart's administration, meaning we don't get our first modern White House sex scandal.
Our OTL Presidents were so much better:
37. Robert Kennedy (Democratic): 1969-1973
38. George Romney (Republican): 1973-1981
39. Walter Mondale (Democratic): 1981-1985
40. Howard Baker (Republican): 1985-1993
41. Pete du Pont (Republican): 1993-1997
42. Al Gore (Democratic): 1997-2005
43. Bob Graham (Democratic): 2005-2009
44. Mitt Romney (Republican): 2009-2017
45. Russ Feingold (Democratic): 2017-Present
A much more capable bunch that the Presidents of Nixon wins in 68. An Actor and a reality TV star (who's now in prison) President, LOL...
OOC: It's already been established that Reagan was President in the 70s, Anderson was elected to succeed him, and Hart won in 1984.
I think Nixon's handling of Vietnam War would proved disastrous: promising "peace with honor", where peace is peace and honor is victory, conflicted with American people's will of peace. Escalating bombings doesn't seem a good way to arrange peace talks with Vietnimh. Also war's costs would aggravate economic inflation turmoil that in OTL led RFK to renegotiate Bretton Woods.
So my idea is that Nixon, with his tricky character (we saw that when RFK revealed Nixon's traitorous acts with Van Thieu and Mrs Chennault) and scandals in his administration (Agnew's corruption is the first in line), is going to lose in 1972 against the Dem nominee (Humphrey who say "yeah, I lost, but 1968 was a mess, you know, Bobby killed, hippies everywhere, let's me have an other chance"? McGovern? Teddy Kennedy? Jackson? Sanford?). My bet is a McCarthy's comeback: he was the main popular candidate of liberal-progressive-anti-war Dem base with RFK and his "Clean for Gene" would work very well against a perceived corrupted administration.
So my list of Presidents is:
37 Richard Milhous Nixon (R-California)/ Spiro Theodore Agnew (R-Maryland) 1969-1973
38 Eugene Joseph McCarthy (D-Minnesota)/ Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida) 1973-1975 [Assassinated]
39 Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida)/ Vacant 1975-1976
Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida)/ Henry Scoop Jackson (D-Washington) 1976-1981
40 Howard Henry Baker Jr (R-Tennessee)/ Paul Dominique Laxalt (R-Nevada) 1981-1989
41 Mario Cuomo (D-New York)/ Samuel Augustus Nunn (D-Georgia) 1989-1997
42 Samuel Augustus Nunn (D-Georgia)/ Michael Stanley Dukakis (D-Massachusetts) 1997-2005
43 John Ellis Bush (R-Texas)/ Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere) 2005-2009
44 Albert Arnold Gore Jr (D-Tennessee)/ John Forbes Kerry (D-Massachusetts) 2009-2013
45 Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere)/ Marco Rubio (R-Florida) 2013-2017
46 Andrew Cuomo (D-New York)/ Marcus Warner (D-Virginia) 2017-...
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OOC:
What about this list as Alt-Presidents:
37 Robert Francis Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) 1969-1973
38 Ronald Wilson Reagan (R-California) 1973-1981
39 John Bayard Anderson (R-Illinois) 1981-1985
40 Gary Warren Hart (D-Colorado) 1985-1989
41 Robert Joseph Dole (R-Kansas) 1989-1997
42 Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere) 1997-2001
43 Anne Richards (D-Texas) 2001-2005
44 John Forbes Kerry (D-Massachusetts) 2005-2009
45 Willard Mitt Romney (R-Massachusetts) 2009-2013
46 Russell Dana Feingold (D-Wisconsin) 2013-...
So my idea is that Nixon, with his tricky character (we saw that when RFK revealed Nixon's traitorous acts with Van Thieu and Mrs Chennault) and scandals in his administration (Agnew's corruption is the first in line), is going to lose in 1972 against the Dem nominee (Humphrey who say "yeah, I lost, but 1968 was a mess, you know, Bobby killed, hippies everywhere, let's me have an other chance"? McGovern? Teddy Kennedy? Jackson? Sanford?). My bet is a McCarthy's comeback: he was the main popular candidate of liberal-progressive-anti-war Dem base with RFK and his "Clean for Gene" would work very well against a perceived corrupted administration.
So my list of Presidents is:
37 Richard Milhous Nixon (R-California)/ Spiro Theodore Agnew (R-Maryland) 1969-1973
38 Eugene Joseph McCarthy (D-Minnesota)/ Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida) 1973-1975 [Assassinated]
39 Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida)/ Vacant 1975-1976
Reubin O'Donovan Askew (D-Florida)/ Henry Scoop Jackson (D-Washington) 1976-1981
40 Howard Henry Baker Jr (R-Tennessee)/ Paul Dominique Laxalt (R-Nevada) 1981-1989
41 Mario Cuomo (D-New York)/ Samuel Augustus Nunn (D-Georgia) 1989-1997
42 Samuel Augustus Nunn (D-Georgia)/ Michael Stanley Dukakis (D-Massachusetts) 1997-2005
43 John Ellis Bush (R-Texas)/ Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere) 2005-2009
44 Albert Arnold Gore Jr (D-Tennessee)/ John Forbes Kerry (D-Massachusetts) 2009-2013
45 Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere)/ Marco Rubio (R-Florida) 2013-2017
46 Andrew Cuomo (D-New York)/ Marcus Warner (D-Virginia) 2017-...
--
OOC:
What about this list as Alt-Presidents:
37 Robert Francis Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) 1969-1973
38 Ronald Wilson Reagan (R-California) 1973-1981
39 John Bayard Anderson (R-Illinois) 1981-1985
40 Gary Warren Hart (D-Colorado) 1985-1989
41 Robert Joseph Dole (R-Kansas) 1989-1997
42 Joseph Robinette Biden III (R-Delawere) 1997-2001
43 Anne Richards (D-Texas) 2001-2005
44 John Forbes Kerry (D-Massachusetts) 2005-2009
45 Willard Mitt Romney (R-Massachusetts) 2009-2013
46 Russell Dana Feingold (D-Wisconsin) 2013-...