DBWI: Nazis Didn't Liquidate the Papacy?

I know it was just another in a long line of tragic occurances during the Nazi's horrific direct rule over Northern Italy from 1943-1945, but I wonder what wouldve been the shape of the post-war Papacy(and Italy) if Hitler didn't order the deportation and liquidation of the Holy See in 1944?

Do you think it would've stop Italy from going Red in the 50s?
 
Last edited:
I think a Communist Italy is still likely but I doubt it would be the same mix of radical Catholicism and Marxism. Possibly we'd see more alignment toward the USSR rather than the post-colonial states. The Pope's death really invigorated Italian politics and everybody loves a martyr. Without his death I think we'd see a slow decline and suppression of religion under a Soviet aligned Italy.
 
It's ironic that the Holy See reconstituted itself in Dublin, protected by the Irish Free State, which in turn was (and still is) protected by...Great Britain.
 
It's ironic that the Holy See reconstituted itself in Dublin, protected by the Irish Free State, which in turn was (and still is) protected by...Great Britain.

Especially since Britain tried (and failed) to get out of the whole sticky Balfour Declaration situation post war by trying to cede Jerusalem to the Pope.
 
It's also doubly ironic that since the fall of the USSR, the entire Politburo attend Catholic Mass on Christmas and Easter, without receiving the communion. They officially claim they're attending a cultural and not religious event and therefore aren't breaking the Party's ban on members attending religious activities, but no one believes them.

And, it's triply ironic that Eugenio Pacelli is commemorated as a martyr during Italy's Victory Day celebrations, while the same person is canonized as St. Pius XII in Dublin.

Not an exaggeration to state that Italy is the most devoutly Catholic nation in Europe.
 
There wouldn't have Catholic Uprise in Germany without such stupid act. It obviously ended war earlier. I am pretty sure that war would have ended on early 1946 instead February '45. And Germany perhaps wouldn't have divided to Catholic and Protestant countries but there would has been different division.

And would we think Pius as such tragic character. He was on his early papacy quiet favorable towards Fascism.

And would relationships between Western and Eastern chuches so good without that?
 
Especially since Britain tried (and failed) to get out of the whole sticky Balfour Declaration situation post war by trying to cede Jerusalem to the Pope.

That would've been awesome. I can just imagine the three way disaster of tossing the IRA in against the Jewish Liberation Front and the Salvation Army*, with all of them fighting the TransJordan Sercurity Forces.

* OOC: Jaysh al-Inqadh al-Arabi gets translated as Arab Salvation Army not Arab Liberation Army ITTL, which naturally gets shortened....
 
There wouldn't have Catholic Uprise in Germany without such stupid act. It obviously ended war earlier. I am pretty sure that war would have ended on early 1946 instead February '45.

True. When photos of the Pope's and the College of Cardinal's hastely burried bodies outside dauchu leaked, the violent German Catholic reaction was legendary. Though I wonder if its memory did more damage to the viability of the Christian faith in post war Europe than good. Since of course the community didn't react that way for the Jews, or the Roma, or the Slavs, etc
 
It's also doubly ironic that since the fall of the USSR, the entire Politburo attend Catholic Mass on Christmas and Easter, without receiving the communion. They officially claim they're attending a cultural and not religious event and therefore aren't breaking the Party's ban on members attending religious activities, but no one believes them.

And, it's triply ironic that Eugenio Pacelli is commemorated as a martyr during Italy's Victory Day celebrations, while the same person is canonized as St. Pius XII in Dublin.

Not an exaggeration to state that Italy is the most devoutly Catholic nation in Europe.

We shouldn't over-romanticize the politburo's attitude toward RCism, however. Yeah, they glorified the anti-fasicst aspects of wartime Catholic culture, but they were also pretty hard on those "rifiutas"(or whatever the word was) who wanted to emigrate to Ireland so they could practce their faith free of government harassment.

Though they did allegedly contrive that failed plot to assassinate Ian Paisley when it looked like he was on the fast-track to the Conservative Party leadership, mostly for realpolitik reasons of course. Suffice to say that whatever he was planning to visit upon Ireland would eventually have bled its way down to the continent.
 
True. When photos of the Pope's and the College of Cardinal's hastely burried bodies outside dauchu leaked, the violent German Catholic reaction was legendary. Though I wonder if its memory did more damage to the viability of the Christian faith in post war Europe than good. Since of course the community didn't react that way for the Jews, or the Roma, or the Slavs, etc

Yea but the photo of the Swiss Guard defending the Jewish refugees at Castle Gandolfo as the priests were loaded on a truck really changed that (at least regarding the Jews). Half the reason for Israel's creation was the support from the Catholic factions in Europe. After the martyrdom of the pope whatever the fascists hated must be ok. As GlobalHumanism pointed out making Israel a Papal State was a bridge too far but the financial and political support of the Catholics made Zionism unassailable in Palestine.

It took the death of the Pope but at least they became outraged about the killings eventually. If he hadn't been murdered the atrocities probably would have all been forgotten in a few years.
 
There wouldn't have Catholic Uprise in Germany without such stupid act. It obviously ended war earlier. I am pretty sure that war would have ended on early 1946 instead February '45. And Germany perhaps wouldn't have divided to Catholic and Protestant countries but there would has been different division.

Aye. Though the Royal Union of Southern Germany's done alright for itself - major industrial nation, with high standard of living.

Who'd have thought it: Austria and Bavaria United under the Wittelsbachs.
 
You think if Rome had gotten wind of Hitler's plans, they could have stopped it?

The Gestapo had such a strangle hold on the city at the time it's really implausible to consider.
I've even read that they might have been some traitorous Cardinals that were complicit in the Pope's capture. I'm sure he probably wished the Nazis would name him Pope once Pius was dealt with, but of course he was gassed along with the rest of them.
 
Who'd have thought it: Austria and Bavaria United under the Wittelsbachs.

The collaborationist conservative non-democratic bullwark against communism the West always dreamed of. Though it's fall in the 90s was as bloody as any of the communist regimes in the east.
Realpolitik, huh?
 
Last edited:
The Gestapo had such a strangle hold on the city at the time it's really implausible to consider.
I've even read that they might have been some traitorous Cardinals that were complicit in the Pope's capture. I'm sure he probably wished the Nazis would name him Pope once Pius was dealt with, but of course he was gassed along with the rest of them.

And there were tanks stationed in St. Peter's square for the entire war. The Papacy's only real protections from the start had been the diplomatic and political outrage that would have resulted from their harassment. With Goring's death that spring Goebbels really seems to have lost all internal controls on his power and went totally off the rails. It's still amazing that he thought the people would rally behind their attack on the Church on the basis that they were hiding Jews and "undermining the state". Even the Soviets were horrified.
 
The collaborationist conservative non-democratic bullwark against communism the West always dreamed of. Though it's fall in the 90s was as bloody as any of the communist regimes in the east.
Realpolitik, huh?

Somebody really should have asked the Austrians what they thought of that union... It probably didn't help the Wittelsbachs that they were incorporating "former" fascists into their government simply because they were Catholic. I mean really, what did they expect from appointing Kurt Waldheim to be Prime Minister?

The Austromarxists certainly learned their lessons from the first uprising in '34, and we have a council communist state in the middle of Central Europe. I don't think the Allies expected to see that in the middle of Central Europe.

The RUSG is just another in a long line of examples of what happens when you draw borders without asking the opinion of the inhabitants.
 
I imagine that if the pope hadn't been killed that way Franco's Spain, and Salazar's Portugal would not nearly have been as tolerated as they were. It's unlikely they would have been included into the European coal and steel community or the formation of the Euro project. And if they weren't in that I doubt their economy would be nearly as strong. The people of Iberia only put up with the authoritarian goverment's because of the extensive welfare state that was created and increased prosperity. If Iberia didn't have access to the markets of the Euro I bet they would have gone under in by the 60's unlike OTL where they hit the nineties.

I have no idea what post-war france would look like though. The Gaulist regime and the 4th republic are not my specialties.
 
That would've been awesome. I can just imagine the three way disaster of tossing the IRA in against the Jewish Liberation Front and the Salvation Army*, with all of them fighting the TransJordan Sercurity Forces.
..

I think the cluster fuck that was the 'Troubles' might give us an example how bad a Jerusalem Papacy couldve gone.

I mean, remember when the P-IRA tried to get the Holy Father to call a catholic crusade for Stormont?x'D
The responding papal bull from Dublin was hilarious in its utter rejection of the notion but in the middle east such a request by itself would have probably started a massive war.
 
Last edited:
No papacy means no "liberation theology" in Latin America or Poland.

Most amusing to see members of the Soviet Politburo attending Catholic mass (as a cultural event) 'cus it gave them their last excuse to separate Marxist-Leninism from the Eastern Orthodox Church. .... another excuse to seize lands held by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Interesting to see how no "liberation theology" in Latin America would affect the American (black) Civil Rights Movement. Without a theological leg to stand on, how could Southern Baptist leaders (like the Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr.) lead his flock to "the promised land"?

How would papal assassination affect Quebec's "Quiet Revolution?"
If the French Catholic Church's civic institutions: schools, hospitals, universities, orphanages, soup kitchens, etc. were already being replaced by federal-gov't funded institutions, would Separatists be so adamant in demanding separation from the rest of Canada?

Would Quebec union members (teachers, etc.) make such strong demands and be so quick to strike?

OTOH Would Irish Catholic institutions (in Quebec) fare any better with an Irish Pope?
 
Last edited:
Top