DBWI: "Nationalism" becomes wide-spread?

Incognito

Banned
Thinking about some of the ongoing conflicts around the world recently, I wondered if the world might have been a better place had "nationalism" ideology only taken root? For those of you unfamiliar with it, "nationalism" was an idea kicked around in the 18th and 19th that people should be loyal to groups based on ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historic ties rather than things like religion. However, the idea never gained much ground.

But what if it had? Can you immagine how quiet Central Europe would be if Tutano-Germanic people had decided to look past their different religions and united into a single nation? In all likelihood then the world would not have suffered two global wars in the 20th century.

Or immagine how peaceful the West Africa would be in 1990s if men had felt loyalty to their ethnic groups?

Or what if people in Eastern Europe and Near East had form "nations" based on linguistic groups and historic ties (e.g.: "Ukraine", "Poland", "Belarus", "Russia", "Lithuania", "Turkey", "Armenia", "Georgia", "Azerbaijan", etc.)? Would the area suffer the population exchanges and genocides in the 20th century?

It's such a shame nationalism never grew beyond philosophical debates. It looks to me like it had the potential to bring peace to the world if only people would be willing put loyalty to their ethnicity, language, blood & culture above petty leaders and religious figures. :(
 
Say goodbye to the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires. If nationalism did take off you'd see a collection of small states where they are located in OTL.
 
Thinking about some of the ongoing conflicts around the world recently, I wondered if the world might have been a better place had "nationalism" ideology only taken root? For those of you unfamiliar with it, "nationalism" was an idea kicked around in the 18th and 19th that people should be loyal to groups based on ethnic, linguistic, cultural, historic ties rather than things like religion. However, the idea never gained much ground.

But what if it had? Can you immagine how quiet Central Europe would be if Tutano-Germanic people had decided to look past their different religions and united into a single nation? In all likelihood then the world would not have suffered two global wars in the 20th century.

Or immagine how peaceful the West Africa would be in 1990s if men had felt loyalty to their ethnic groups?

Or what if people in Eastern Europe and Near East had form "nations" based on linguistic groups and historic ties (e.g.: "Ukraine", "Poland", "Belarus", "Russia", "Lithuania", "Turkey", "Armenia", "Georgia", "Azerbaijan", etc.)? Would the area suffer the population exchanges and genocides in the 20th century?

It's such a shame nationalism never grew beyond philosophical debates. It looks to me like it had the potential to bring peace to the world if only people would be willing put loyalty to their ethnicity, language, blood & culture above petty leaders and religious figures. :(

I think it would depend largely on the types of nationalism that emerged. But I can say that we wouldn't necessarily see anything worse than what the Prussian Empire did to the Czechs, Poles, and Frenchmen in the early to mid '40s, or the truly violent and widespread pogroms against the Jews(or the Russian Holocaust as many call it; as many as 10 million are believed to have died during this terrible period) in the dying days of the Russian Empire between 1906-11.....But it wouldn't necessarily be a utopia, either: Ethnic-based nationalism in particular, can have its own problems as well; Look at what happened in Korea in the 1930s or Austria in the 1880s(which fell apart just 20 years later. Austria still has it's Emperor today, and even still claims its old territory, but Hungary's been independent for years now.) or Ottoman Turkey in the 1960s(which later broke apart in a spectacularly bloody fashion: today, only Syria remains a colony, and North Syria at that: Damascus was destroyed by an atom bomb in 1948; what was southern Syria is now part of Greater Jordan.).....not to mention the C.A.S. in the South of North America in the 1870s as well(although William Walker paid with his life when it fell apart. And as for Milledgeville, Georgia, what was left stands as a historical reminder of those tragic days. President Fremont made sure of that, too.).

And I shouldn't need to point out that nationalism didn't die out entirely: look at Canada for example. They are basically a nation founded on a melding of Anglo and French cultures, but with plenty of Native American influences, especially these days. And they've done just fine; if you can avoid the failures of Korea and Austria in particular, you may be able to make nationalism much more widespread.
 
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Incognito

Banned
I think it would depend largely on the types of nationalism that emerged. But I can say that we wouldn't necessarily see anything worse than what the Prussian Empire did to the Czechs, Poles, and Frenchmen in the early to mid '40s, or the truly violent and widespread pogroms against the Jews(or the Russian Holocaust as many call it; as many as 10 million are believed to have died during this terrible period) in the dying days of the Russian Empire between 1906-11.....But it wouldn't necessarily be a utopia, either: Ethnic-based nationalism in particular, can have its own problems as well; Look at what happened in Korea in the 1930s or Austria in the 1880s(which fell apart just 20 years later. Austria still has it's Emperor today, and even still claims its old territory, but Hungary's been independent for years now.) or Ottoman Turkey in the 1960s(which later broke apart in a spectacularly bloody fashion: today, only Syria remains a colony, and North Syria at that: Damascus was destroyed by an atom bomb in 1948; what was southern Syria is now part of Greater Jordan.).....not to mention the C.A.S. in the South of North America in the 1870s as well(although William Walker paid with his life when it fell apart. And as for Milledgeville, Georgia, what was left stands as a historical reminder of those tragic days. President Fremont made sure of that, too.).

And I shouldn't need to point out that nationalism didn't die out entirely: look at Canada for example. They are basically a nation founded on a melding of Anglo and French cultures, but with plenty of Native American influences, especially these days. And they've done just fine; if you can avoid the failures of Korea and Austria in particular, you may be able to make nationalism much more widespread.
I'm sorry, but a lot of what you attribute to "nationalism" has nothing to do with the concept. The Fall of the Austrian Empire was clearly a conflict between Catholisism and Orthodoxy. Why do you think France, Spain, Brazil, Papal States, etc. supported Austria while the Hetmonate, Russian Empire, Greece, Balkan Underground, Ethiopia, etc supported Hungery?

Similarly, the Collapse of the Ottomans was the result of the Arab leaders challenging the Osmans to the title of Caliph.

Meanwhile, although things might seem calm on the surface, deep down tensions run high in Canada between the Anglophone Protestant majority and Francophone & Metis Catholic minority
 
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I'm sorry, but a lot of what you attribute to "nationalism" has nothing to do with the concept. The Fall of the Austrian Empire was clearly a conflict between Catholisism and Orthodoxy. Why do you think France, Spain, Brazil, Papal States, etc. supported Austria while the Hetmonate, Moscowite Empire, Greece, Balkan Union, Ethiopia, etc supported Hungery?

Similarly, the Collapse of the Ottomans was the result of the Arab leaders challenging the Osmans to the title of Caliph.

OOC: I apologize, but it appeared that the POD was in the 18th.....if not then, when was it? :confused:
 

Incognito

Banned
OOC: I apologize, but it appeared that the POD was in the 18th.....if not then, when was it? :confused:
OOC: Correct. The Hetmonate, Moscowite Empire, etc. were supposed to be the successors to the Russian Empire but I see now that the dates you gave don't quite match with what you wrote about Austria. I'll edit my post to make it fit better.
 
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