DBWI: Napoleon’s Russia

What if Russia had adopted “scorched earth” tactics when Napoleon invaded, as the Tsar’s generals recommended, instead of fighting a few decisive battles? How would this impact the development of European History?

OOC: leaving this wide open. You guys can determine who would’ve won, everything.
 

Deleted member 97083

It would've been disastrous for Russia. Napoleon's army didn't live off the land, anyway, but supplied itself from the Baltic Sea after the Emperor's accommodation with Bernadotte. Hence why Napoleon headed straight to St. Petersburg.
 
It would've been disastrous for Russia. Napoleon's army didn't live off the land, anyway, but supplied itself from the Baltic Sea after the Emperor's accommodation with Bernadotte. Hence why Napoleon headed straight to St. Petersburg.

My thoughts precisely. Would the Tsar be able to abandon both Moscow and St. Petersburg and remain in power?
 
It would've been disastrous for Russia. Napoleon's army didn't live off the land, anyway, but supplied itself from the Baltic Sea after the Emperor's accommodation with Bernadotte. Hence why Napoleon headed straight to St. Petersburg.

Not disagreeing, but the Baltic Sea was only part. A lot of the supply issues were meant to be resolved through buying from locals. An issue reported by many of the French Officers was the local Russian populace refusing to sell to the French Army. It's part of the reason post Moscow the supply situation went so badly. Initial reserves and supplies started running out at this point.
 
Do I have to remind you guys that troops led by Napoleon pushed all the way to Tsaritsyne in the South ? Russia was pretty much forced to make peace when it did. That it only had to cede Samogitia and Central Lithuania (OOC : Modern Lithuania) to the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw and the Baltic Islands to Prussia was a feat of diplomacy in and of itself.
 
Do I have to remind you guys that troops led by Napoleon pushed all the way to Tsaritsyne in the South ? Russia was pretty much forced to make peace when it did. That it only had to cede Samogitia and Central Lithuania (OOC : Modern Lithuania) to the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw and the Baltic Islands to Prussia was a feat of diplomacy in and of itself.

This is very true
 
It would've been disastrous for Russia. Napoleon's army didn't live off the land, anyway, but supplied itself from the Baltic Sea after the Emperor's accommodation with Bernadotte. Hence why Napoleon headed straight to St. Petersburg.

Few comments (no offense is intended :)):

1st, at least to some degree policy of the scorched earth had been implemented during the Russian retreat.

2nd, while initially Napoleon's army had been carrying with it considerable supplies, they did not last even through the invasion stage and when one is talking about the supplies, don't forget that "the horses do not have patriotism and can't be left starving" so there was a need for foraging on the way. As a result, there were serious losses of the horses due to the inadequate food (especially not fully ripe grain).

3rd, an idea of supplying the Great Army through the Baltic ports would not stay to any serious criticism (sorry). To start with, which "ports"? Then, try to imagine a logistic effort needed for carrying the adequate supplies from one of the Baltic ports in French hands (not Riga or Revel) all the way to Smolensk or Moscow. How many carts (and horses) would it take? Not to mention the trifles like an absence of a significant French naval force on the Baltic Sea and presence of the Russian and British navies there. And, of course, it is an open question what would be a starting point(s) for these supply ships and how the supplies would get there?

4th, almost the last thing Bernadotte wanted was "accommodation" with Nappy even if he was rather reluctant to break relations openly until getting issues settled with Alexander. To start with, they did not like each other (even if Bernadotte was formally a part of the family). Then, for Sweden alliance with Napoleon meant adherence to the Continental System, which Sweden could not afford because Britain was the biggest (and perhaps the only) customer of the Swedish exports. Nappy COULD promise Bernadotte return of Finland but there was no guarantee that he will not take his promise back if this would be a part of his settlement with Alexander (much more important for Napoleon than Bernadotte's interests), besides, the combination would mean that Sweden risks one more war with Russia. In other words, almost as soon as Bernadotte sides with Napoleon, his position in Sweden is jeopardized (and it is not such a big problem to find another crown prince).

5th, in the terms of supplies Sweden, even friendly to France, would be pretty much useless: it could not provide supplies for 400,000 soldiers and it did not have a navy capable of protecting the caravans sailing across the Baltics (to where?).

6th, there seems to be a fundamental confusion about Napoleon and his methods of warfare. He was ALWAYS going for destruction of the enemy's army with (generally correct) assumption that after this goal is achieved, the opponent would ask for peace (did not work in Spain). Move toward St.-Petersburg would be something contrary to that method because it was leaving the Russian armies intact on his extended right flank. Capture of St-Petersburg would solve nothing: Alexander still has his armies (with the numbers growing, in 1812 Russians were still in a process of increasing their military forces) and Nappy has to chase them sooner or later. Only a small portion of the European Russia is lost so there is still a huge space for maneuver. Economically, the lost part is important but not critical and Russia can keep getting the British supplies through the Black Sea ports. As soon as the Great Army starts moving to chase the Russian armies, it starts having the same supply problems as in OTL. So basically, Napoleon is losing a year of campaigning.
 
What if Russia had adopted “scorched earth” tactics when Napoleon invaded, as the Tsar’s generals recommended, instead of fighting a few decisive battles? How would this impact the development of European History?

OOC: leaving this wide open. You guys can determine who would’ve won, everything.

Well, the OTL battles were hardly decisive and mostly "political" and the scorched earth policy was partially implemented during the Russian retreat. But even as it was, Nappy managed to bring to Borodino only approximately 100K and, as Clausewitz remarked, did not represent a danger capable of forcing Alexander to sue for peace. Basically, he lost as soon as his initial plan of destroying the Russian armies near the border failed. After this the Russians just had to avoid a major disaster.
 
Not disagreeing, but the Baltic Sea was only part. A lot of the supply issues were meant to be resolved through buying from locals. An issue reported by many of the French Officers was the local Russian populace refusing to sell to the French Army. It's part of the reason post Moscow the supply situation went so badly. Initial reserves and supplies started running out at this point.

These French officers forgot to mention that they rarely offered gold for payment and quite often there was a simple looting. Actually, some of the Russian contemporaries stated that if the French were offering the gold, they'd find much more cooperation than in OTL (contrary to the later "tradition", the contemporaries remarked on reasonably frequent cases of "cooperation"). Then, again, the French army did not have a properly established system for these occasions. It already became clear in Spain and in Russia situation was repeating itself. Various units had been sending their own supply commands which in most cases had been just looting with the predictable results. Strictly speaking, the Great Army did not have an adequate supply system at all beyond the initial supplies gathering. After that the things had been delegated to the corps commanders and further down the chain of command. And, with VERY FEW exceptions, these commanders had neither experience nor wish to organize things properly. Upon retreat from Moscow only the Guards and Davou's corps had properly organized baggage trains and most of the (still available) food had been lost due to the loss of the horses (again, a lot of time to provide for the winter horseshoes but nobody cared) and it is safe to say that a lot of a personal loot had been carried instead of food (the same as in Spain).
 
Do I have to remind you guys that troops led by Napoleon pushed all the way to Tsaritsyne in the South ? Russia was pretty much forced to make peace when it did. That it only had to cede Samogitia and Central Lithuania (OOC : Modern Lithuania) to the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw and the Baltic Islands to Prussia was a feat of diplomacy in and of itself.

If "Tsaritsine" is the same as "Tsaritsyn", the obvious question is how did he manage to get there (and why)? Without fighting a single big battle he managed to bring to Moscow (Borodino) approximately 100K out of the initial 400K+ and do you understand the distances involved in the march from Moscow toward Tsarytsin? He would arrive there with what? A battalion of the Old Guards? :)

Not to mention that it simply would not make any practical sense (city was still relatively unimportant).
 
If "Tsaritsine" is the same as "Tsaritsyn", the obvious question is how did he manage to get there (and why)? Without fighting a single big battle he managed to bring to Moscow (Borodino) approximately 100K out of the initial 400K+ and do you understand the distances involved in the march from Moscow toward Tsarytsin? He would arrive there with what? A battalion of the Old Guards? :)

Not to mention that it simply would not make any practical sense (city was still relatively unimportant).
Napoleon had a habit of working with several corps. And just like some were focussed towards Moscow, and others were going towards St Petersburg - alongside the Prussians, see the Siege of Riga - he had a couple unleashed further South, working their way into Ukraine.
 
Napoleon had a habit of working with several corps. And just like some were focussed towards Moscow, and others were going towards St Petersburg - alongside the Prussians, see the Siege of Riga - he had a couple unleashed further South, working their way into Ukraine.

There are some problems with this scenario.

1st, as I already mentioned, it is decisively "un-Napoleonic" by 2 main reasons: (a) instead of concentration of the forces, it is doing quite opposite and (b) it is going for the geographic points instead of the enemy's troops. Such a plan could be produced by one of the learned Austrian generals or by Karl Ludwig von Phull (who devised something similar in principle for the Russian side). And it does not make too much sense to discuss Napoleon who is not Napoleon (of course, I sinned in that direction more than once). :)

2nd, by doing so Napoleon would loose his numeric advantage on the main direction. Even worse, the widely separated "armies" would not be able to help each other and potentially could be destroyed one by one. In his Russian campaign Nappy had only one marshal adequate for a successful command of independent army, Davout. But the problem with Davout was his "charming" personality: he openly disliked incompetents and, as a result, managed to be on the bad terms with most of his colleagues. Practically all of the rest had been brave and good in executing Napoleon's orders but lacking the administrative skills and strategic talents.
 
What if Russia had adopted “scorched earth” tactics when Napoleon invaded, as the Tsar’s generals recommended, instead of fighting a few decisive battles? How would this impact the development of European History?

OOC: leaving this wide open. You guys can determine who would’ve won, everything.


Do I have to remind you guys that troops led by Napoleon pushed all the way to Tsaritsyne in the South ? Russia was pretty much forced to make peace when it did. That it only had to cede Samogitia and Central Lithuania (OOC : Modern Lithuania) to the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw and the Baltic Islands to Prussia was a feat of diplomacy in and of itself.

"Lead" by Napoleon in only the loosest sense. I mean, let's be realistic here: sure losing so many major battles and having to abandon St. Petersburg to the advancing Grand Armee proper (Which WAS getting at least a reasonable flow of supplies via the Baltic... or at least establishing some depots along the coast to keep the local garrisons from having to pick the land bare or tap into the supplies being looted and/or purchased by the forces in the field. That did wonders for preventing any revolts/disruptions in the rear and allowed for the effective organization of the locals into the "Citizen-Constabularies" who proved so vital in quashing attempts at Czarist cavalry raiding and freeing up French/Allied troops to continue their offensives), it was the breaking up of Russian authority on the edges of the nation and the rise of so many local revolts/ acts of banditry who's leaders nominally allied themselves with Le'Emperor's cause in exchange for carte blanc to establish their own petty kingdoms and plunder Russian wealth. Platov's mutiny was only one example of this, and the only reason you had fighting that far down the Volga in the first place... hell, he haden't even received his honorary French marshalship at the time his Cossacks murdered the Russian garrison in their bunks.

Granted, pulling back and implimenting scorched earth tactics probably woulden't change that very much: it certainly woulden't earn the goodwill of the populations on the Empire's edge who'd be baring the brunt of those abuses by the Czar's armies. You'd probably still see major uprisings among the Caucasian tribes, Tartars, Cossack hosts, ect. as Russia's armies pulled out of the area: though the major difference would be they might not be able to field as large of an armed resistance without their local harvests still intact and would have to weigh the risk of facing an organized crack-down if the still in-being Russian army returned to the area should their tactics succeed in making Napoleon turn back. That might allow for Russia to avoid the lose of its only recently gained presence/predominance on the northern Black Sea coast and Don River region as well as prevent the reseizure of Bessarabia by Moldovia, which could have major impacts on future Turkish-Russian relations. Without a corridor of independent/mutually influenced states between them providing a buffer and satisfying both their security and trade interests, we might never see the broader reproachment between the Islamic and Eastern Orthodox political and religious establishment (Including the groundbreaking Treaty of Jerusalem) which was a huge contributor to the final success of the idea of religious pluralism in eastern Europe and the end of the endless series of Russo-Turkish wars. You could have seen the rivalry between the two nations continue on for CENTURIES (And probably exploited by the French to gain further expansion into Eastern Europe) in that case.
 
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