DBWI: Muhammed Ali Dodged the Draft?

Muhammad-Ali-quotes.jpg


I've always heard that Muhammed Ali knocked around the idea of dodging the draft once his number was called during the Vietnam war - even going as far as to consider fleeing to Canada.
However, given the fact that he eventually decided to commit to service and emerged from duty as a war hero (Even becoming a medal-winning Green Beret, IIRC), I wonder what could've been different had he instead chose the former path.

Would this have butterflied his political career? His business pursuits in military contracting?
And of course, how might the sport of boxing been different of he had remained active?
 
He sure splintered the Nation of Islam with that act and brought black Muslims into the mainstream. Nowadays the NOI is a fringe group much like the FLDS in Utah, but the Western Islamic Union is more mainstream - as in, no racial exclusion, looser rules of engagement, a leader who doesn't blame everything on Jews and white people. They even have members in Congress and nobody cares.
 
This is just another one of those TLs created to deny that George Foreman is the GOAT isn't it?

So many haters . . .
 
If I remember correctly, Muhammad Ali had a private meeting with Elijah Muhammad that discouraged Ali from dodging the draft for various sundry reasons. But instead of being drafted (even though his draft number came up), I believe he joined the US Army as a volunteer--and went into the Greet Beret program. After his honorable discharge in 1970, Ali even thought about going to Officer's School to become a full-time US Army officer, but then there was this "wannabe big mouth" named Joe Frazier--who had won the heavyweight title during Ali's Army career--who challenged Ali. The rest, they say, is history....
 
I wonder if Ali would have been able to convince the Kentucky legislature to create a majority black congressional district if he did not serve in the military.

That is how he was elected to Congress in 1982.
 
If I remember correctly, Muhammad Ali had a private meeting with Elijah Muhammad that discouraged Ali from dodging the draft for various sundry reasons. But instead of being drafted (even though his draft number came up), I believe he joined the US Army as a volunteer--and went into the Greet Beret program. After his honorable discharge in 1970, Ali even thought about going to Officer's School to become a full-time US Army officer, but then there was this "wannabe big mouth" named Joe Frazier--who had won the heavyweight title during Ali's Army career--who challenged Ali. The rest, they say, is history....
I remember that Ali vs Frazier's "Rumble in the jungle" match in 1972, and "Thrilla in manila" match vs Foreman, and "storm in seoul" match vs Frazier..
 
If Muhammed had claimed conscience objector status, from his local draft board all the way up to the U.S. Dept. of Justice would have claimed that you have to be a member of a traditional pacifist religion, that you can't just figure it out on your own.

I have long felt this to he an injustice. But be that as it may, that's probably how it would have gone down.

Some people would want to make an example of Muhammed because they think the rules should apply to everyone including famous persons. Other persons frankly he's a Muslim and a black guy. It would be a real mess of a situation.
 
If Muhammed had claimed conscience objector status, from his local draft board all the way up to the U.S. Dept. of Justice would have claimed that you have to be a member of a traditional pacifist religion, that you can't just figure it out on your own.

I have long felt this to he an injustice. But be that as it may, that's probably how it would have gone down.

Some people would want to make an example of Muhammed because they think the rules should apply to everyone including famous persons. Other persons frankly he's a Muslim and a black guy. It would be a real mess of a situation.

I hardly think its fair to say it would be because he was black or Muslim. You must have known about the counter-protest marches that were already occurring by World War II vets, poor whites, and those returning from the war against the sheer number of "academic deferments" being handed out to those pot-smoking, sexually deviant, hippies who were just burning through their middle and upper class parent's money to get out of having to go through any real hardships or fulfill their civic duty. If the poster child for Black America at the time had looked like he was standing with those cowards and ended up associating THEM with the movement of equal treatment for all races while alienating the hard-scrambled, hard working rural Americans who were defending our way of life, I shudder to think of what race relations might be like today.

Prior to Muahmmed's famous Adhina Americana, blacks in America were dangeriously close to embracing separatist or identitarian politics that would have only vindicated the beliefs of the white racists that "those people" weren't able to live peacefully in American society alongside "good white folk". But after he uttered his famous question "How can we ask for civil rights, he if we aren't willing to do our civil duty?" And made the veterans of the resulting huge surge of black volunteers and their eventual role in the victory in South Vietnam and liberation of Laos and Cambodia from the genocidal "Gore Red" regeime of the Khemar Rouge the face of the face of the racial equality movement? Suddenly that march of men marching down your street asking for respect isen't a mob of layabouts; its basically Flag Day.

Those boys who grew up to govern with our fellow citizens who just so happen to have a slightly darker skin pigment learned how to do that and why it wasen't a bad thing by fighting and bleeding alongside those same citizens for Democracy in Southeast Asia. My grandpappy (Who was awarded a Triple-M for risking his life to toss away a live grenade that was about to take out three of his squad mates ... one of which was black, might I add, during his tour off duty in the Nam Xang Valley) always told me "I learned at least one of those dammed Rebs said one thing right about our black compatriots; something about iff they made good soldiers than their whole damm theory on slavery was wrong. Well, Ali showed he was as dammed good as soldier as any white man, and that shut the rest of the bigots up."

I, for one, honor what he did to prove himself the bigger man in the face of prejudice rather than sink to the back and forth griping of Black Power bigots like Malcolm "X". Getting attached to the military and the virtues of American civic virtue was the best thing that ever happened to the Civil Rights movement: infinitely better than getting tarred with the samed brush as the draft-dodgers, Pinkos, and disrespectful layabouts of the "counter-culture" of the time.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Ali's drafting had an interesting and little know side effect, the USG changed its minds about letting the Apollo astronauts do Vietnam tours. as many had asked during the hiatus after the Apollo 1 fire. Previously they had been worried about the optics of what would happen if the NVA shot down and captured as Astronaut. The overwhelmingly positive response to Ali's service led the, to change their minds. That means Gene Cernan does not get shot down and win the MOH for his courage in captivity and legendary escape in 1971. He does not enter politics and become POTUS in 1988. On the flip side, he does have a chance to walk on the moon*. ALthough if he walks on the moon, he does not fly Apollo Soyuz in 75; which kickstarted his political career, and he got it cause he was a war hero and it gave the mission a lot of publicity.

*Contrary to what has been reported, he never was a realistic candidate for being the first man on the moon instead of David Scott in 1971, he had only one flight before his captivity, and a non Command one at that, Scott had two priors. Cernan would have probably gotten either an early Lunar orbit mission as CMP/LMP and a later landing mission as CDR.

OOC: This is not totally dreamt up. The active duty and ANG/reserve astronauts had to maintain proficiency in the Apollo era and during the 20-month break after Apollo 1, several, including Cernan, did ask about going to the 'Nam. They were turned down, and told that they were needed more for the Lunar shots; but also because the USG was worried about them being captured or killed and the propaganda value for the Government in Hanoi. I have given the 1971 date for a landing (in OTL, Scott's Apollo 15 flight took place in July that year) since the loss of experienced astronauts would push back the schedule, the early Apollo lunar missions, typically contained either two or for '10, '11, three veterans, the did not want rookies on early lunar flights.
 
He sure splintered the Nation of Islam with that act and brought black Muslims into the mainstream. Nowadays the NOI is a fringe group . . .
I respectfully disagree. I heard a minister with the Nation of Islam speak, and in part he talked about businesses which could more directly and honorably serve predominantly black communities. For example, grocery stores, and he talked about that you have to buy in volume and get the volume discounts and buy as close to the farmer as you can. He struck me as a good-natured, realistic individual.

So, I think things would have been fine if the NOI had remained larger and more prominent.
 
Last edited:
. . . and Cambodia from the genocidal . . .
Yes, I'm glad we sent buffer troops to Cambodia in 1973, too.

I'm not crazy that we later slapped trade sanctions on for something like seven long years. Our stated reason was that there had been cheating in the early '74 election which brought a half-assed socialist government to power. Of course, there was cheating. There's usually going to be cheating when a country is coming out of a chaotic situation. But I think the real reason was that this government was against our oil companies and insisted on re-negotiating drilling deals.
 
Last edited:
I respectfully disagree. I heard a minister with the Nation of Islam speak, and in part he talked about businesses which could more directly and honorably serve predominantly black communities. For example, grocery stores, and he talked about that you have to buy in volume and get the volume discounts and buy as close to the farmer as you can. He struck me as a good-natured, realistic individual.

So, I think things would have been fine if the NOI had remained larger and more prominent.

The NOI has chilled out a lot in the last couple of decades; that's for sure. The WIU is still far more prominent, though, and it has always had a message like that, so the NOI is kind of learning from it.
 
Yes, I'm glad we sent buffer troops to Cambodia in 1973, too.

I'm not crazy that we later slapped trade sanctions on for something like seven long years. Our stated reason was that there had been cheating in the early '74 election which brought a half-assed socialist government to power. Of course, there was cheating. There's usually going to be cheating when a country is coming out of a chaotic situation. But I think the real reason was that this government was against our oil companies and insisted on re-negotiating drilling deals.

I'm sorry, but what Beijing rag did you get THAT theory from? Pol Pot's thugs were literally holding villages at gunpoint during the election cycle, and their constant terrorist attacks killed off a third of the non-Socialist candidates: even Moscow signed on to the Security Council decreee condemning their actions as radical and authorizing international supervision. I'd hardly call it a fair election when half the rural population coulden't vote for anything right of what Khemar Rouge terrorists and their Red Chinese puppet-masters deamed "proper peasant Communism", and when even then they only barely manage to squeak through a Socialist majority, you know they're not interested in real democracy.

As for the development of the Cambondian oil industry, I fail to see how all the investment that attracted and how it kicked off the nation's industrialization was a bad thing. The Cambodian Republic is a role model for how international capitalism and a little American-provided security and stability can allow even former colonial peasant states into a moderately properious and stable democracy even in the span of a few short decades. Their GDP per capita and level of general education is the highest in all of Asia outside of Japan... though, the constant rural terrorism conducted by Red China's agents in much of the rest of the region plays some part in that. And its better than having to buy our oil from the Soviets or, heaven forbid, actually developing and propping up those backwards tribal aristocrats in Arabia.
 
The NOI has chilled out a lot in the last couple of decades; that's for sure. The WIU is still far more prominent, though, and it has always had a message like that, so the NOI is kind of learning from it.
I'm pretty sure the fellow I heard speak was a traditionalist. And I think a country can usually handle a certain percentage of separatists. In fact, in a roundabout kind of way, it provides competition so that the rest of us are at our best game. :)
 
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/cambodia_ethnic_1972.jpg


Cambodia (1972)
cambodia_ethnic_1972.jpg


In large part, the Khmer Rouge was teenagers with guns who believed they were purer than their elders. And that's scary and explosive shit, regardless of the content of the ideology.

And then, there was a big ethnic component. Look at the large medium-orange region in the eastern region of the country, and a little along the top and scattered elsewhere. These hill peoples (the Khmer Loeu) were the Khmer Rouge, who were attempting to tyrannize people who had previously treated them as second-class citizens.
 
. . . Pol Pot's thugs were literally holding villages at gunpoint during the election cycle, and their constant terrorist attacks killed off a third of the non-Socialist candidates: even Moscow signed on to the Security Council decreee condemning their actions . . .
And the socialist candidate who won was just barely acceptable to the Khmer Rouge leadership. I view him squarely as a coalition candidate.

For example, he was emphatic that land reform would be pushed forward, and that traditionalists would be part of the people implementing it to make sure it was done in a non-abusive manner.
 
Last edited:
And the socialist candidate who won was just barely acceptable to the Khmer Rouge leadership. I view him squarely as a coalition candidate.

For example, he was emphatic that land reform would be pushed forward, and that traditionalists would be part of the people implementing it to make sure it was done in a non-abusive manner.

... seriously? Why should the moderates and right-wingers: who campaigned peacefully and promoted their ideals with thoughtful discussion and speeches on an open forum (At least, when the scheduled meetings weren't getting bombed by Commie terrorists). Hell, the televised and radio debates with all the candidates had to take place IN SAIGON just to ensure the Khemar Rouge diden't remove all their competitors in a single coup de grace like they were constantly threatening to.

We don't negotiate with terrorists. They have no place in a democratic society: only in Moscow's and Beijing's single-party dictatorships are those kinds of folks glorified.
 

Loghain

Banned
... seriously? Why should the moderates and right-wingers: who campaigned peacefully and promoted their ideals with thoughtful discussion and speeches on an open forum (At least, when the scheduled meetings weren't getting bombed by Commie terrorists). Hell, the televised and radio debates with all the candidates had to take place IN SAIGON just to ensure the Khemar Rouge diden't remove all their competitors in a single coup de grace like they were constantly threatening to.

We don't negotiate with terrorists. They have no place in a democratic society: only in Moscow's and Beijing's single-party dictatorships are those kinds of folks glorified.

I wouldnt call Moscow Single party Dictatorship any longer. Sure its still Authoritian as hell but i say in 8 years you have different party in power.
 
. . . Hell, the televised and radio debates with all the candidates had to take place IN SAIGON just to ensure the Khemar Rouge diden't remove all their competitors in a single coup de grace like they were constantly threatening to.

We don't negotiate with terrorists. They have no place in a democratic society: only in Moscow's and Beijing's single-party dictatorships are those kinds of folks glorified.
In a dystopian ATL, the Khmer Rouge comes to power in 1975. They end up murdering about a third of their fellow citizens, in a lot of direct killings, but also through mass starvation, while at the same time increasing exports of food. And they also engage in armed excursions across the Vietnamese border, and in some cases attacking Vietnamese villages and killing Vietnamese citizens. Vietnam decides it's had enough and invades Cambodia early 1979 and pushes all the way to the capitol city Phnom Pehn. But instead of getting credit for stopping the genocide, we're still against Vietnam because we "lost" the war. In fact, the U.S., Britain, and other western power led a successful UN push to isolate Vietnam (and weirdly even support a remnant Khmer Rouge government-in-exile, that part was unrealistic). And as harmful as war is, and don't think for a second that I'm not against war, the economic sanctions on Vietnam and Cambodia all through the 1980s may have almost been equally bad.

In OTL, the elected coalition leader in 1974 began de-emphasizing the military, very matter-of-factly citing budgetary constraints. Also encouraging industry, medicine, and engineering to set up respectful training programs for veterans. Many people in the country were happy to participate in this positive, constructive effort. And it was all bend-the-path. He didn't even stop new soldiers entering the service, he just slowed it down a lot, and he made it easier for soldiers to leave by speaking in favor of a bill to reduce enlistment to two years. All the same, we in the west still slapped sanctions on Cambodia, initially for seven years, but we started to lighten up after five.
 
Last edited:
920x1240.jpg


The West Coast Fusion from their early days!!!

This predominantly Cambodian band hit it big in the States in the late '70s and early '80s. They had "Sherry Baby" and "Dance This Way," and their darker, semi-metal, anti-system hit "Against the Whole School." And for those who like music like I do, they had a lot more than just that and some damn solid albums.

The above photo is from a documentary about the Cambodia rock scene early '70s.
http://www.sfchronicle.com/movies/article/Don-t-Think-I-ve-Forgotten-Cambodia-s-6247656.php
 
Top