DBWI: More Empathize of the American Media on the European Theater instead of the Pacific.

[S. Marlowski]

As we all know, there are plenty of films about the Pacific War made by Hollywood, whereas the American impact on the European and North African Fronts are not a very popular subject of Hollywood Films, as well as other media such as documentaries and video games.

The question is, what if Hollywood had made more movies about America's War against Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy in Europe instead of the American War against the Japanese Empire.

 

[karatachi]

Lengthen the War in Pacific.

 

[Johnrankins]

Hard to do. Japan did attack the US first and Germany fell pretty quick after that civil war broke out after Hitler's death in late 1942. Nobody to this day is sure if it was a successful assassination or an Allied bomb got lucky but after his death, Himmler and Goering went at it with the Heer pulled into the fighting. With all the infighting the Russians were able to push eastward while an Anglo-American invasion of France went off without a hitch. Meanwhile, the Japanese fought tooth and nail until early 1945.

 

[Roches]

Someone's going to post one of those Downfall parodies. All he says is "Please let these men stay in the room: Suzuki, Yonai, Anami, Togo." <Repeated in the original Japanese.> Then, two minutes of absolute stillness and silence, and finally "We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers." Somehow that's a comedy gold mine if you add some faux-Japanese and a transcript of the Emperor's thoughts on everything from cricket to World of Starcraft.

[OOC: My first thought was of a Pacific War version of the meme. It'd have to be the exact opposite. Hitler ranting for two minutes becomes a silent study of just how calm and serene the men were. Then I remembered Operation Downfall, and the parody would still work, so I had to say something. Apologies.]

 

[Johnrankins]

Someone's going to post one of those Downfall parodies. All he says is "Please let these men stay in the room: Suzuki, Yonai, Anami, Togo." <Repeated in the original Japanese.> Then, two minutes of absolute stillness and silence, and finally "We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers." Somehow that's a comedy gold mine if you add some faux-Japanese and a transcript of the Emperor's thoughts on everything from cricket to World of Starcraft.

[OOC: My first thought was of a Pacific War version of the meme. It'd have to be the exact opposite. Hitler ranting for two minutes becomes a silent study of just how calm and serene the men were. Then I remembered Operation Downfall, and the parody would still work, so I had to say something. Apologies.]

OOC: Was Hirohito prone to ranting? Not from what I have heard but I could be wrong.

 

[Byz]

Half a million Americans died taking Japan. The casualties for the Japanese were exponentially worse. We're talking about the bloodiest invasion in history.

Meanwhile the Germans fell apart like a house of cards after Hitler's death, with some factions within Germany even welcoming the WAllies over Soviet control. The two fronts aren't even in the same ballpark, though we do get some pretty awesome tank battles in North Africa and around Prague.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

OOC: Was Hirohito prone to ranting? Not from what I have heard but I could be wrong.

Not especially prone to ranting, but he had little tolerance for bickering in his presence. He grew frustrated with both militarists, interrupting them to recite some words of wisdom from his grandfather: (IIRC)"The four winds are of the same mother/ Why do they blow with such discord", and also with pacifists- his brother, Nobuhito, Prince Takamatsu who was an officer in the IJN who opposed the invasion of Manchuria, China and the war with the US and Britain, asked the Emperor to sue for peace after Midway, which apparently caused a major argument.

His favoured retort was "Is that so?" combined with a raised eyebrow.

 

[Dolan]

Half a million Americans died taking Japan. The casualties for the Japanese were exponentially worse. We're talking about the bloodiest invasion in history.

And American Invasion basically stopped as they agreed for Japanese Surrender after the Emperor himself finally making a coup against his own militarist government.

That was the moment ensuring the survival of Japanese Royalty, as weird as it was, US simply couldn't stomach sacrificing projected 10 million casualties if they didn't accept the Hirohito Proposal.

The Downfall ending is one of the most horrifically tragic scene in all movies though, as while we cheered when Tojo is forced to cut his own belly, we also see Yamamoto doing the same thing under the order of the Emperor. The very fact that the top Generals being permitted to commit Seppuku instead of being hanged definitely give the more brutal vibe.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

And American Invasion basically stopped as they agreed for Japanese Surrender after the Emperor himself finally making a coup against his own militarist government.

That was the moment ensuring the survival of Japanese Royalty, as weird as it was, US simply couldn't stomach sacrificing projected 10 million casualties if they didn't accept the Hirohito Proposal.

The Downfall ending is one of the most horrifically tragic scene in all movies though, as while we cheered when Tojo is forced to cut his own belly, we also see Yamamoto doing the same thing under the order of the Emperor. The very fact that the top Generals being permitted to commit Seppuku instead of being hanged definitely give the more brutal vibe.

Ten Million? What? Maximum US -Commonwealth casualty estimates for taking the rest of Japan hovered at around an additional 250k killed wounded or missing. By the time of Japans Surrender tens of thousands of Japanese were dropping dead due to starvation while the USAAF and RAF Bomber command had literally burned down every Japanese urban centre of note. The IJA was out of ammunition, running low on food, and completely unable to move out of its fixed positions in any matter. The only thing Japan’s continued resistance would have entailed is more dead Japanese and increased Western animosity.

 

[Mister Abbadon]

In all seriousness the European theater is to messy, ugly, and unpleasant to make a compelling film about. The common image of the Japanese is an honorable but misguided worthy opponent. Much more room for "if not for these petty national differences we could be brothers" which is a popular trope with war movie makers. Granted that interpretation is not the most nuanced and ignores a lot of unpleasantness but that's why we don't learn history from Spielberg movies.

Meanwhile the Germans were commonly seen as A. Cowards who threw down their guns as soon as they didn't have an overwhelming advantage. B. Backstabbing schemers who were content to try and slice up each other in a vain effort to get in good with the winner and C. Genocidal Monsters. I guess if A. or B. wasn't there you'd have a good pitch black evil but then your antagonists are really just villains. If you include all three of those elements then you've got a kind of wishy washy "Real life is complicated" thing going which isn't the most compelling movie.

 

[EverKing]

In all seriousness the European theater is to messy, ugly, and unpleasant to make a compelling film about. The common image of the Japanese is an honorable but misguided worthy opponent. Much more room for "if not for these petty national differences we could be brothers" which is a popular trope with war movie makers. Granted that interpretation is not the most nuanced and ignores a lot of unpleasantness but that's why we don't learn history from Spielberg movies.

Right. American's love their films to have that mythic quality and the cinematic treatment of the Bushido driven modern Samurai fulfilling his warrior duty for his Emperor just has that in spades. It is the Cowboy & Samurai myth--two men driven more by what they are honor bound to do than what is in their best self interest. This pairing, as mythologized by Hollywood, is simply more compelling than the brief brutality and utter hatred of ETO.

Still, it may be interesting to see a film about the Normandy Landings instead of yet another film about I Corps getting pinned down on Miyazaki on X-Day. I mean, c'mon, we know the story by now--how many different ways can see the 25th ID getting ambushed off the beach and needing the be "saved" on X+3 by the 1st Cav.?

 

[Byz]

Ten Million? What? Maximum US -Commonwealth casualty estimates for taking the rest of Japan hovered at around an additional 250k killed wounded or missing. By the time of Japans Surrender tens of thousands of Japanese were dropping dead due to starvation while the USAAF and RAF Bomber command had literally burned down every Japanese urban centre of note. The IJA was out of ammunition, running low on food, and completely unable to move out of its fixed positions in any matter. The only thing Japan’s continued resistance would have entailed is more dead Japanese and increased Western animosity.

I'm pretty sure they're counting max estimates of Japanese civilian casualties as well as American ones. The Hirohito proposal could be argued to save Japan from apocalyptic-level destruction. As it was the scars were deep but Japan as a nation lived and eventually bounced back.

Back to OP, avoiding Hitler's death (meaning an united Germany) and/or causing Japan to surrender earlier will be good ways to start to accomplish this, though I can't imagine the European theater ending up more important to the US than the Pacific one. Europe was the war of the Soviet Union and Britain, the Pacific was "our" war.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

There is also the fact that while a number of 'Embedded' camera teams were sent to the ETO they suffered heavy losses in the Torch landings when the majority of them were lost with the sinking of the SS Gold Coast during a briefing prior to the landings before they dispersed and of the survivors several more team were lost particularly during the subsequent Kasserine Pass battles.

After that Ike kept his remaining teams and there subsequent replacements on a short leash and of course with the collapse of Germany in late 43 following the Summer landings in Normandy and the defeat of AG Centre in Russia which effectively ended the war in Europe there was not that many major land battles to cover.

By comparison the bloody and horrific battles in the Pacific campaign culminating in the heavy losses of the Japanese mainland campaign took far longer (as far as the USA is involved).

The images and films of Gas masked GIs, heavily armed with Semi and fully automatic weapons, but still with bayonets fitted nervously following flame thrower equipped Sherman tanks that were burning any potential ambush spot as they made their way through a Japanese town strewn with dead Japanese Soldiers and Civilians that the snow had not quite covered is still harrowing to this day.

 

[Post]

It would have helped if the US performed better in the European theatre and not having their ass saved all the time by their Allies. At Torch they were almost thrown out by the french when they invaded. In the end they managed to get to Kasserine pass, but got repelled there by the Germans, while the British just drove on to Tunis and cut of the Germans.
Then at Sicily they bungled up their part, with Patton arriving at Palermo while Montgomery had his victory parade there.

Then in Italy they wanted to do their own part, with the British and Canadians landing at Salerno, while at the same time they landed at Anzio. The British and Canadians quickly took the port, while the American never got off the beach and eventully had to be saved by the British and Canadian advance across the mainland. Then they got stuck forever at Monte Cassino and only took that when the Brazilians got into the war.

At Normandy they got stuck on the beach for quite some time again (not getting Hobarts funnies didn't really help). In the end they did their part in closing the Gap of Falaise, but the British/Canadian advance from Caen, after taking the city was the main blow.
Then when they closed up to the german border, Patton thought it would be a good idea to attack the fortress of Metz. Which wasn't such a good idea after all, it turned out to be a giant resource sink and there was no progress for three months. Meanwhile the french drove on to Strassbourg and then swung north to Saarbrücken to cut the german supplylines and effectively surrounding the German First army. The french were the first to take a german city in WW2.

The failure at Market Garden didn't help either. While the British paratroopers quickly took the bridges at Grave and Nijmegen. The American landings in Arnhem utterly failed and they got stuck in Oosterbeek and never got near the bridge. Although they had the bad luck of an SS panzer division being in their way.

Then the debacle at Wacht am Rhein, where Bastogne was quickly overrun and the Germans made it to Dinant and Namur, nearly crossing the Meuse. Just the swift diversion of Montgomerys armoured divisions stopped the german advance. And in the American sector, the best succes was made by the 2nd french armoured division, which advanced from their positions in Saarbrücken and Luxemburg (which they had only recently took) and cut of some crucial german supply lines (the french still make fun of the American surrender monkeys in december 1944, after liberating a large temporary PoW-camp in Bastogne. Ironically there were several there from the 101st divison who where in september dropped at Arnhem and liberated by XXX corps, to be redeployed at Bastogne and liberated by the french. And a large part of the American paratroopers at Normandy where also taken prisoner, so I can see where the french got the joke that standard operations from American paratroopers were to drop and then search for the nearest german to surrender to).

The American operations in the European ToW where like a comedy of errors, where everytime they had to be saved by the Brits, Canadians and French. That's not really entertaining for the American public. But there are some good french movies about the Lorraine campaign and the battle of Bastogne.

 

[Johnrankins]

It would have helped if the US performed better in the European theatre and not having their ass saved all the time by their Allies. At Torch they were almost thrown out by the french when they invaded. In the end they managed to get to Kasserine pass, but got repelled there by the Germans, while the British just drove on to Tunis and cut of the Germans.
Then at Sicily they bungled up their part, with Patton arriving at Palermo while Montgomery had his victory parade there.

Then in Italy they wanted to do their own part, with the British and Canadians landing at Salerno, while at the same time they landed at Anzio. The British and Canadians quickly took the port, while the American never got off the beach and eventully had to be saved by the British and Canadian advance across the mainland. Then they got stuck forever at Monte Cassino and only took that when the Brazilians got into the war.

At Normandy they got stuck on the beach for quite some time again (not getting Hobarts funnies didn't really help). In the end they did their part in closing the Gap of Falaise, but the British/Canadian advance from Caen, after taking the city was the main blow.
Then when they closed up to the german border, Patton thought it would be a good idea to attack the fortress of Metz. Which wasn't such a good idea after all, it turned out to be a giant resource sink and there was no progress for three months. Meanwhile the french drove on to Strassbourg and then swung north to Saarbrücken to cut the german supplylines and effectively surrounding the German First army. The french were the first to take a german city in WW2.

The failure at Market Garden didn't help either. While the British paratroopers quickly took the bridges at Grave and Nijmegen. The American landings in Arnhem utterly failed and they got stuck in Oosterbeek and never got near the bridge. Although they had the bad luck of an SS panzer division being in their way.

Then the debacle at Wacht am Rhein, where Bastogne was quickly overrun and the Germans made it to Dinant and Namur, nearly crossing the Meuse. Just the swift diversion of Montgomerys armoured divisions stopped the german advance. And in the American sector, the best succes was made by the 2nd french armoured division, which advanced from their positions in Saarbrücken and Luxemburg (which they had only recently took) and cut of some crucial german supply lines (the french still make fun of the American surrender monkeys in december 1944, after liberating a large temporary PoW-camp in Bastogne. Ironically there were several there from the 101st divison who where in september dropped at Arnhem and liberated by XXX corps, to be redeployed at Bastogne and liberated by the french, so I can see where they got that joke).

The American operations in the European ToW where like a comedy of errors, where everytime they had to be saved by the Brits, Canadians and French. That's not really entertaining for the American public. But there are some good french movies about the Lorraine campaign and the battle of Bastogne.

You do realize this contradicts an earlier post that states that Germany basically collapsed in civil war after Hitler's death don't you? None of this would have happened. At the very least it would have been butterflied away. In fact, the whole thing would have been a cakewalk as the Germans are as busy fighting each other as the Allies.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

It would have helped if the US performed better in the European theatre and not having their ass saved all the time by their Allies. At Torch they were almost thrown out by the french when they invaded. In the end they managed to get to Kasserine pass, but got repelled there by the Germans, while the British just drove on to Tunis and cut of the Germans.
Then at Sicily they bungled up their part, with Patton arriving at Palermo while Montgomery had his victory parade there.

Then in Italy they wanted to do their own part, with the British and Canadians landing at Salerno, while at the same time they landed at Anzio. The British and Canadians quickly took the port, while the American never got off the beach and eventully had to be saved by the British and Canadian advance across the mainland. Then they got stuck forever at Monte Cassino and only took that when the Brazilians got into the war.

At Normandy they got stuck on the beach for quite some time again (not getting Hobarts funnies didn't really help). In the end they did their part in closing the Gap of Falaise, but the British/Canadian advance from Caen, after taking the city was the main blow.
Then when they closed up to the german border, Patton thought it would be a good idea to attack the fortress of Metz. Which wasn't such a good idea after all, it turned out to be a giant resource sink and there was no progress for three months. Meanwhile the french drove on to Strassbourg and then swung north to Saarbrücken to cut the german supplylines and effectively surrounding the German First army. The french were the first to take a german city in WW2.

The failure at Market Garden didn't help either. While the British paratroopers quickly took the bridges at Grave and Nijmegen. The American landings in Arnhem utterly failed and they got stuck in Oosterbeek and never got near the bridge. Although they had the bad luck of an SS panzer division being in their way.

Then the debacle at Wacht am Rhein, where Bastogne was quickly overrun and the Germans made it to Dinant and Namur, nearly crossing the Meuse. Just the swift diversion of Montgomerys armoured divisions stopped the german advance. And in the American sector, the best succes was made by the 2nd french armoured division, which advanced from their positions in Saarbrücken and Luxemburg (which they had only recently took) and cut of some crucial german supply lines (the french still make fun of the American surrender monkeys in december 1944, after liberating a large temporary PoW-camp in Bastogne. Ironically there were several there from the 101st divison who where in september dropped at Arnhem and liberated by XXX corps, to be redeployed at Bastogne and liberated by the french, so I can see where they got that joke).

The American operations in the European ToW where like a comedy of errors, where everytime they had to be saved by the Brits, Canadians and French. That's not really entertaining for the American public. But there are some good french movies about the Lorraine campaign and the battle of Bastogne.

Well to be fair to the Americans by the time the ETO effectively ended they were division for division getting to the same levels as the Commonwealth and French forces (and don't ever forget that apart from the French units Berets of those Elite French armoured units everything else from belt buckles to tanks was made in the USA!) who had a 2 year plus head start on learning to fight the Germans.

And the whole thing would not have been possible without the USA's involvement - something that I find a lot of French people like to overlook.

And many of those US units went on to fight very well in the later battles of the Pacific and Chinese campaigns

 

[Post]

You do realize this contradicts an earlier post that states that Germany basically collapsed in civil war after Hitler's death don't you? None of this would have happened. At the very least it would have been butterflied away. In fact, the whole thing would have been a cakewalk as the Germans are as busy fighting each other as the Allies.

I mistyped, december 1944 should have been 1943.
(OOC: post #12 and #13 still mentioned the Normandy landings, I was going from there).

Well to be fair to the Americans by the time the ETO effectively ended they were division for division getting to the same levels as the Commonwealth and French forces (and don't ever forget that apart from the French units Berets of those Elite French armoured units everything else from belt buckles to tanks was made in the USA!) who had a 2 year plus head start on learning to fight the Germans.

And the whole thing would not have been possible without the USA's involvement - something that I find a lot of French people like to overlook.

And many of those US units went on to fight very well in the later battles of the Pacific and Chinese campaigns

Yeah, that's true. They were thrown into battle with little training and compared to hardened battle troops. They also had the bad luck of almost always facing the fanatical SS divisions, who still put up a hard fight.
And in the end they did learn and did well in Pacific campaigns.

 

[Johnrankins]

I mistyped, december 1944 should have been 1943.
(OOC: post #12 and #13 still mentioned the Normandy landings, I was going from there).

Landing at Normandy is fairly likely whenever it happens. It is probably the best landing site, as the shortest route is likely to be the heaviest guarded while Normandy was less so. You basically have the war happening the same battle for battle, which is damn near ASB.

 

[Johnrankins]

Meanwhile the Germans were commonly seen as A. Cowards who threw down their guns as soon as they didn't have an overwhelming advantage. B. Backstabbing schemers who were content to try and slice up each other in a vain effort to get in good with the winner and C. Genocidal Monsters. I guess if A. or B. wasn't there you'd have a good pitch black evil but then your antagonists are really just villains. If you include all three of those elements then you've got a kind of wishy washy "Real life is complicated" thing going which isn't the most compelling movie.

Ah, the simplicity of American movies. C is true enough but A and B is more complicated. The real problem was that Hitler was the glue that held Nazi Germany together. About the only thing that all the factions could agree on is that Hitler was the Fuhrer. After he died everyone wanted to be the new Fuhrer and there was no clear succession put into place.

Every potential Fuhrer assumed he would have a quick and easy win over his opponents, although only Goering and Himmler had a real chance. The Germans proved perfectly willing to fight and die, even when fighting each other, which was the problem.

For the first four months of the German Civil War, the Germans weren't throwing down their guns so much as being brushed aside as half the army was fighting the other half. After that Germany was so clearly weak compared to its opponents that they started to try to vie for dominance so they could be in the best position to negotiate with the Allies.

FDR and Churchill deserve a lot of credit here. Churchill more than FDR as the British Diplomatic Service had a LOT more experience with this than the USA. They were talking to all the factions hinting that they wanted them to win but promising nothing. Wishful thinking by the Germans did the rest. Goering seemed shocked that his victory over his German competitors didn't save him from hanging.

 

[IncongruousGoat]

Anyone here heard of the Manhattan Project? It was a secret WWII American project to build a nuclear weapon, mostly intended to counter Nazi Germany. When the Reich fell, the project was cancelled, but the decision to cancel it was a close one, with a serious contingent arguing for continuing the project for use against Imperial Japan. If the project had been carried to fruition (it was technologically feasible, barely), it could have led to a much more violent, but shorter, end to the Pacific Theater. Nuke a few Japanese cities to force a surrender, type of thing. You still run into the problem of Nazi Germany's collapse cutting the European Theater short, but at least you make the Pacific Theater a bit less of an obvious target. Nuking your enemy into surrender is not exactly war film material.

Of course, deploying nuclear weapons in war is a pretty crappy way of getting anything done. But it's an interesting thought nonetheless.