DBWI: Ming Dynasty crushed Shun

Dorozhand

Banned
What if the Yongchang Emperor had been unsuccessful in establishing Great Shun? At many points his Herculean efforts that were required to fend off all the rebellion's foes could have failed. One PoD that I've tossed around is a failure of the Khalka Mongols to side with Shun. They were vital in routing Wu Sangui and the Manchu at Shanhai Pass and could easily have been convinced to join Later Jin.

What other potential events could have resulted in Great Ming surviving and what would be the consequences? Could the ailing Ming have successfully dealt with the Manchu as Shun Taizu did?
 
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For the Shun Dynasty not to succeed,ironically,you will need the founder of the Dynasty Li Zicheng alive.After the rebels took Beijing,they started looting and pillaging the city.Li Zicheng's followers also turned out to be no better than the officials they have replaced.They were as corrupt and brutal as the Ming officials they have replaced,if not worse.Li Zicheng and his follower's essentially squandered all of their goodwill with the people.Li Zicheng's seizure of Chen Yuanyuan as his concubine also showed that the man was a political idiot.It led to Wu Sangui siding with the Manchus.Thankfully,the guy died of a heart attack while he was with Chen Yuanyuan,otherwise his nephew would not have taken over,purged the corruptive elements and repelled the Manchu's.
 
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Dorozhand

Banned
For the Shun Dynasty not to succeed,ironically,you will need the founder of the Dynasty Li Zicheng alive.After the rebels took Beijing,they started looting and pillaging the city.Li Zicheng's followers also turned out to be no better than the officials they have replaced.They were as corrupt and brutal as the Ming officials they have replaced,if not worse.Li Zicheng and his follower's essentially squandered all of their goodwill with the people.Li Zicheng's seizure of Chen Yuanyuan as his concubine also showed that the man was a political idiot.It led to Wu Sangui siding with the Manchus.Thankfully,the guy died of a heart attack while he was with Chen Yuanyuan,otherwise his nephew would not have taken over,purged the corruptive elements and repelled the Manchu's.

OOC: contradicting op. Li commands at Shanhai and lives to consolidate the dynasty. Also shun's officials military and civil seemed to have been quite effective given the circumstances. Altogether he actually rather resembles the Hongwu emperor.
 
OOC: contradicting op. Li commands at Shanhai and lives to consolidate the dynasty. Also shun's officials military and civil seemed to have been quite effective given the circumstances. Altogether he actually rather resembles the Hongwu emperor.

OOC:The OP didn't state that Li Zicheng was there to command the battle at Shanhai Pass.Besides that,Shun's officials soon fell into infighting and corruption.Their greatest strength was popular support,but their actions pretty much destroyed it.Hongwu unlike, Li Zicheng ,forbade pillaging and looting civilians.Li Zicheng on the other hand either endorsed it or lost control.

What if the Yongchang Emperor had been unsuccessful in establishing Great Shun? At many points his Herculean efforts that were required to fend off all the rebellion's foes could have failed. One PoD that I've tossed around is a failure of the Khalka Mongols to side with Shun. They were vital in routing Wu Sangui and the Manchu at Shanghai Pass and could easily have been convinced to join Later Jin.

What other potential events could have resulted in Great Ming surviving and what would be the consequences? Could the ailing Ming have successfully dealt with the Manchu as Shun Taizu did?
This could be interpreted as his efforts up to conquering Beijing,which were impressive.
 
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Dorozhand

Banned
OOC:The OP didn't state that Li Zicheng was there to command the battle at Shanhai Pass.Besides that,Shun's officials soon fell into infighting and corruption.Their greatest strength was popular support,but their actions pretty much destroyed it.Hongwu unlike, Li Zicheng ,forbade pillaging and looting civilians.Li Zicheng on the other hand either endorsed it or lost control.

This could be interpreted as his efforts up to conquering Beijing,which were impressive.

Fair enough. Say on.
 
Another possible way the Ming Dynasty could have won would be if Li Yan's executed.The man was Li Zicheng's chief strategist,and Li Zicheng was paranoid of his abilities.The other Shun officials,especially the Chancellor Niu Jinxing, were jealous of him and they plotted to have him executed with Li Zicheng's approval after Li Yan tried to stop them from pillaging the city of Beijing.Li Zicheng's death ended that scheme of course,and the officials that tried to have Li Yan killed were themselves executed.Without Li Yan's abilities,I doubt Shun could have survived long even if they managed to repel the Manchus from Shanhai Pass.It was the efforts of both Taizong and Li Yan that the rebels got reorganized into a genuine state instead of a marauding horde.

OOC:Li Yan's execution in OTL due to Li Zicheng and the other rebels' jealousy of his abilities was instrumental to Shun's dissolution after the Battle of Shanhai Pass.The man was basically the brains behind the rebellion and large parts of the remaining Shun forces deserted Li Zicheng after Li Yan was executed.He was also the only one that seems genuinely to care about the people whereas Li Zicheng and the rest were either corrupted or were only in the rebel movement for power and wealth.This is why Li Zicheng had to die.He was a bit like a Proto-Mao Zedong.
 
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