DBWI: Mao and Zhou Live?

Now, IOTL, Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai were both among the many upper CCP officials killed during the Battle of Yan'an. This is often said to have been the point when the CCP was doomed, as their leadership, decapitated, fell to Chiang's forces within a decade, but what if Mao and Zhao hadn't been among the dead? Might the CCP have gained control of China? How would this affect the rise of the Chinese "Asian Partnership' during the Cold War? The Korean War might also be affected, and, from there, it might even impact events in American politics, such as the fall of the Republican Party form prominence. Your thoughts?
 
Well, fewer people would have heard of Peng Duhuai, Zhu De, or Liu Shaoqi, for starters.
Ah, yes, the men who became the leaders of the party following Mao's death. The famouse Big Three". Yeah, probably. They did de facto rule over Manchuria for about a decade, even if it was re-taken by Chinese forces in '56.
 
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Without China to worry about the Soviet Union wouldn't have had to spend so much on securing its southern border.
Granted this did lead to economic development of the area but without the expence of securing the Chinese border the Soviet Union wouldn't have gone bankrupt and collapsed in 2003.
 
Without China to worry about the Soviet Union wouldn't have had to spend so much on securing its southern border.
Granted this did lead to economic development of the area but without the expence of securing the Chinese border the Soviet Union wouldn't have gone bankrupt and collapsed in 2003.
Remarkably without violence too. I doubt Ukraine would be as economically prosperous as it is now. The Cold War in general would have taken a way different path. With the Soviets having a new, and powerful, ally in China, The Korean War would have probably dragged on longer. I wouldn't be surprised if the North might have ended up winning. That, in turn, would probably have precluded Harry S. Truman getting his third term, and you can forget Eisenhower running under the Democrats in 56. He only agreed to run with them because of how well Truman handled Korea. That could have had tons of Butterflies in foreign policy. What might happen to, say, Mossadegh under a more paranoid US? Some more paranoid officials, advocated an overthrow due to his Socialist tendencies after all. Those plans never got very far, partly because they were proposed by Joe McCarthy, an obscure Senator who drank himself to death in '54. Sorry, i'm rambling, but this is a big Butterfly.
 
Why do people think them surviving would lead to a communist China? They might be a thorn in the side of Chiang for a little while longer, but really the core of their military force was annihilated in Yunan. They would just face the same issues as their OTL successors.

If the aim is a Communist China i’d have the 1976 transition take a more radical direction. In OTL Communists played a fairly important role in the protests that brought Chiang Ching-kuo down. If you prevent the radicals being sidelined in its aftermath (perhaps the US continue to support the Blueshirt loyalists instead of pivoting to the new government?), then you could have a fairly leftist China.
 
Why do people think them surviving would lead to a communist China? They might be a thorn in the side of Chiang for a little while longer, but really the core of their military force was annihilated in Yunan. They would just face the same issues as their OTL successors.

If the aim is a Communist China i’d have the 1976 transition take a more radical direction. In OTL Communists played a fairly important role in the protests that brought Chiang Ching-kuo down. If you prevent the radicals being sidelined in its aftermath (perhaps the US continue to support the Blueshirt loyalists instead of pivoting to the new government?), then you could have a fairly leftist China.
That's a fair point.
 
I've never heard of these people, and have never found much reason to study communism in China. Was there any remarkable difference in ability between Mao and Zhou and the historical leadership of the People's Republic (popularly Manchuria)?

Did the Chinese communists historically ever defeat the nationalists without substantial Soviet assistance? Sure you could nerf the Nationalists, but why wouldn't one of the "warlords" or some other faction be the ones to benefit?
 
I've never heard of these people, and have never found much reason to study communism in China. Was there any remarkable difference in ability between Mao and Zhou and the historical leadership of the People's Republic (popularly Manchuria)?

Did the Chinese communists historically ever defeat the nationalists without substantial Soviet assistance? Sure you could nerf the Nationalists, but why wouldn't one of the "warlords" or some other faction be the ones to benefit?
Mao was known as a far more charismatic leader then his contemporaries, while Zhou was a skilled statesmen and diplomat.
 
Mao was known as a far more charismatic leader then his contemporaries, while Zhou was a skilled statesmen and diplomat.
What evidence is there for that though? They have that image among far-left circles because they’ve become martyrised. Their alleged talents is mostly historical myth. Yeah they were decent leaders, but they weren’t so much better than their successors that they could prevent the inevitable. That’s just greatman theory.
 
What evidence is there for that though? They have that image among far-left circles because they’ve become martyrised. Their alleged talents is mostly historical myth.
Fair, but they weren't the only major CCP officials killed there.
 
Fair, but they weren't the only major CCP officials killed there.
But the POD is those two surviving, not them winning the battle. Maybe the POD could be a less disasterous loss? And then with their army somewhat intact they would be in a much better position than just those two leaders surviving.
 
But the POD is those two surviving, not them winning the battle. Maybe the POD could be a less disasterous loss? And then with their army somewhat intact they would be in a much better position than just those two leaders surviving.
That's true.
 
I mean genuinely when the Soviet Union collapsed it was really bad for all of those soldiers stranded guarding the Chinese border. I heard stories of entire division is facing starvation and having to sell their tanks to the Chinese food and shelter.
 
I mean genuinely when the Soviet Union collapsed it was really bad for all of those soldiers stranded guarding the Chinese border. I heard stories of entire division is facing starvation and having to sell their tanks to the Chinese food and shelter.
Certianley. The collapse was more peaceful than expected, but that doesn't mean it was perfect.
 
Certianley. The collapse was more peaceful than expected, but that doesn't mean it was perfect.
Yeah An the current Russian government isn’t exactly perfect either. They declared all of those soldiers who sold their equipment so Their could keep them selves fed to have committed high treason. Even today there’s about 45,000 former Russian nationals living in China and Mongolia because they can never go home without being publicly executed.
 
Yeah An the current Russian government isn’t exactly perfect either. They declared all of those soldiers who sold their equipment so Their could keep them selves fed to have committed high treason. Even today there’s about 45,000 former Russian nationals living in China and Mongolia because they can never go home without being publicly executed.
True. Too bad Yeltsin drank himself to death.
 
Maybe the Korean War could have ended in a stalemate? The north certainly could have won, but I find it unlikely that even if Mao and Zhou managed to make China fully communist it would be fully ready for the war by the time of the Korean War, and its support of the north makes it likley their would be greater US and international intervention in the war, so the South wouldn’t have done as much of the fighting itself. However with the support from another major communist power still likley would have made the north more successful in at least defending itself, and thus a stalemate is the likley result.
 
Maybe the Korean War could have ended in a stalemate? The north certainly could have won, but I find it unlikely that even if Mao and Zhou managed to make China fully communist it would be fully ready for the war by the time of the Korean War, and its support of the north makes it likley their would be greater US and international intervention in the war, so the South wouldn’t have done as much of the fighting itself. However with the support from another major communist power still likley would have made the north more successful in at least defending itself, and thus a stalemate is the likley result.
That's a fiar point.
 
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