DBWI: Liberia is Much Worse Off

[Ellis MacVey]

So, I just got back from a vacation to Liberia the other day, and please don't assume this post is somehow racist or anything because I absolutely loved it there, but it just got me thinking...

It was surprisingly egalitarian and non-racist for the U.S. government of the time to provide as much support to the Liberians. I mean, it certainly paid off, especially in WW2 when they helped support the allied campaign in North Africa, but the government couldn't have known that at the time, and people were really racist back then.

So, what if the United States hadn't provided nearly as much initial help and support to Liberia as they had in our timeline? In my opinion, not to offend any Liberian readers here, but the Liberians really needed a leg up to be successful at first, though they became self-sufficient pretty quickly. I'd say best case scenario, it ends up as a mess like South Africa*. What do you guys think?

OOC *South Africa TTL is a lot like South Africa OTL, only maybe a little bit worse.

 

[Wolttaire]

Could someone give me a general outline of Liberian history? I am ignorant about it history

 

[ETGalaxy]

Could someone give me a general outline of Liberian history? I am ignorant about it history

From what I know, Liberia was a nation established by the American Colonization Society (ACS), an organization that sought to establish a homeland for freed African-Americans, in the early 19th Century for the very purpose of the ACS. It would remain in the American sphere of influence for quite awhile and is the closest thing the United States ever got to an African colony, with Liberia being heavily influenced by the United States (the capital of Liberia is named Monrovia, the Liberian flag is similar to that of the United States, etc). By the 20th Century, Liberia had adopted a policy of segregation similar to what was going on in the United States, however, in Liberia the nation was divided between those of African-American descent (Americo-Liberians) and the Native Liberians. By the present day, segregation has ended and the nation is no longer dictated by Americo-Liberians, however, this only ended after plenty of violence in Liberia.

Liberia is simply just an oddity of history, with a fascinating history. I'd also love to see a Liberia-wank timeline, because the world needs more of that awesome Liberian weirdness.

 

[Wolttaire]

From what I know, Liberia was a nation established by the American Colonization Society (ACS), an organization that sought to establish a homeland for freed African-Americans, in the early 19th Century for the very purpose of the ACS. It would remain in the American sphere of influence for quite awhile and is the closest thing the United States ever got to an African colony, with Liberia being heavily influenced by the United States (the capital of Liberia is named Monrovia, the Liberian flag is similar to that of the United States, etc). By the 20th Century, Liberia had adopted a policy of segregation similar to what was going on in the United States, however, in Liberia the nation was divided between those of African-American descent (Americo-Liberians) and the Native Liberians. By the present day, segregation has ended and the nation is no longer dictated by Americo-Liberians, however, this only ended after plenty of violence in Liberia.

Liberia is simply just an oddity of history, with a fascinating history. I'd also love to see a Liberia-wank timeline, because the world needs more of that awesome Liberian weirdness.

oh I mean the alternate Liberia and that a very good description and when it fell apart there were a massive civil war

 

[ETGalaxy]

oh I mean the alternate Liberia and that a very good description and when it fell apart there were a massive civil war

OOC: Shoot, I missed that this was a DBWI, that explains a lot. But thanks anyway!

 

[CountDVB]

From what I know, Liberia was a nation established by the American Colonization Society (ACS), an organization that sought to establish a homeland for freed African-Americans, in the early 19th Century for the very purpose of the ACS. It would remain in the American sphere of influence for quite awhile and is the closest thing the United States ever got to an African colony, with Liberia being heavily influenced by the United States (the capital of Liberia is named Monrovia, the Liberian flag is similar to that of the United States, etc). By the 20th Century, Liberia had adopted a policy of segregation similar to what was going on in the United States, however, in Liberia the nation was divided between those of African-American descent (Americo-Liberians) and the Native Liberians. By the present day, segregation has ended and the nation is no longer dictated by Americo-Liberians, however, this only ended after plenty of violence in Liberia.

Liberia is simply just an oddity of history, with a fascinating history. I'd also love to see a Liberia-wank timeline, because the world needs more of that awesome Liberian weirdness.

OOC: This is a DBWI. Talking about it if Liberia did not undergo that sort of stuff.

Okay, well after the USA settled Liberia, things got kinda rough when the settled Afro-Americans began subjugating some of the natives. This kinda made the people realize there that they needed to run the place better so it does not fall into chaos. So they asked some of the prominent abolitionists and freedmen to help The USA did so because of their prestige and also possibly to see if they could grow some crops there legally and fuck with the South. They wrote a constitution and had the citizens and the natives be treated equally. It was a pragmatic move, but one that won them alot of favors. It was little wonder why more and more people joined Liberia.

The USA would end up promoting enlightened self-interest once they realized that doing good things could benefit them in the long run. That's why things would become alot better after the Civil War. Mexico would get in on the fun when they helped the USA in the Spanish-American war and got Spanish Guinea before expanding it to get their own territory/vassal in Equatoria.

During World War 2, the two nations were massively beneficial in North Africa and Central Africa campaigns and after the war, Liberia helped in organize North Africa into stable states while Equatoria did the same. Alot of Africa hold the USA and Mexico in ebtter regard than toward most of Europe.

 

[TRH]

The key to the ACS' success was that they'd done their homework, rather than just packing some black people onto a ship and hoping for the best. Some of their donors sponsored a team of French chemists who'd isolated an anti-malarial drug derived from a special tree bark. With the new quinine drug, the colonists were able to weather the tropical diseases that'd stymied previous Western colonization efforts in Africa. The political troubles between the African-American colonists and the natives were another matter, but without that medical breakthrough, they might've suffered too high an attrition rate to continue, and discouraged further settlement for decades afterwards.

 

[CountDVB]

The key to the ACS' success was that they'd done their homework, rather than just packing some black people onto a ship and hoping for the best. Some of their donors sponsored a team of French chemists who'd isolated an anti-malarial drug derived from a special tree bark. With the new quinine drug, the colonists were able to weather the tropical diseases that'd stymied previous Western colonization efforts in Africa. The political troubles between the African-American colonists and the natives were another matter, but without that medical breakthrough, they might've suffered too high an attrition rate to continue, and discouraged further settlement for decades afterwards.

Yeah, though those petered away with some of the officers the USA sent who did not dicriminate against either, class-wise. In a bizarre sense, helped the two groups find a commonality.

 

[JSilvy]

Liberia (and Equatoria as well for that matter) are easily the two richest countries in Africa, and it was them and Ethiopia as the only fully independent nations on the continent who would set the groundwork for the formation of the African Union and the gradual independence of African nations. Without them I imagine African independence would go far messier. While things didn’t go perfectly, who knows what could have happened? I imagine if they weren’t there to push for a peaceful solution in Rwanda, that easily could have led to an all-out civil war, and potentially even genocide.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

As a point of correction, Liberia was legally an American colony until 1876. It was administered by the Department of the Navy (so not quite analogous to the western territories, which fell under Interior after that department was created). Not many freed slaves were settled there until the Civil War, when Lincoln got Congress to heavily subsidize a colonization scheme. Independence was granted post Civil War when the freed slaves were the majority of the population due to the success of the colonization scheme, and, crucially, also American citizens after the passage of the 14th Amendment, enabling the creation of a territorial legislature. Congress passed the independence bill rather hastily after the Liberian legislature petitioned for statehood.

Yes, if Liberia had been made "independent" from the start, with only a handful of free slaves resettled, the place would have been a basket case, but my guess is that it would have been taken over by some European country who wanted a bit of African territory, with Germany or Italy likely candidates. In that case it wouldn't have developed differently from the other west African countries, despite the colorful history. It probably would have been a lot like neighboring Sierre Leone.

 

[JuliantheUnknown]

I mean, let's remember that there are still some problems with the natives and Americo-Liberians - not nearly as much as other places and even the USA, but they are there. For example, the recent push for native Liberian languages to be saved as unfortunately a lot of them are dying out because of the overwhelming prevalence of English (something like only two to three percent can speak a native language according to the most recent polls).

And there are still problems with much of the money being held by traditionally Americo-Liberian families.

That being said, it could have been a LOT worse. I think we only need to look at some of the repeat experiments that some European countries tried to do with their own former slaves or even their own forcibly shipped off free African citizens *coughAlbionacough* without realizing why Liberia went so right.

Some of those places still suffer from economic downturn and corruption.

 

[Clandango]

Oh dear. Seems to be a lot of stuff about freed slaves here. Can we be clear at what point they were freed? We need to think about Freedmen, Mulattos, and a handful of the Black Seminoles who were over there. And of course those who remained in the US. I actually think that having fewer people moving over to Liberia might have helped out a little, as then the Americos could have slowly integrated with the local population rather than... Well, where I am at they don't have many books about them. They have a few, but the university and public libraries basically have books on history separated by pigment. If less Blacks moved to Liberia would the South have been able to maintain their mudsill theory based rules for society? It got pretty bloody when sharecroppers and the grandsons of overseers had it confirmed that they were seen as trash by the rich.

OOC: My post is a bit of a confused mess. Don't take anything as strictly canon, and consider it as having come from a society where people are condensending , and mentally use color swatches and calipers to judge people.

 

[CountDVB]

Liberia (and Equatoria as well for that matter) are easily the two richest countries in Africa, and it was them and Ethiopia as the only fully independent nations on the continent who would set the groundwork for the formation of the African Union and the gradual independence of African nations. Without them I imagine African independence would go far messier. While things didn’t go perfectly, who knows what could have happened? I imagine if they weren’t there to push for a peaceful solution in Rwanda, that easily could have led to an all-out civil war, and potentially even genocide.

Yeah. Only reason Ethiopia is not as well off as its two fellow free African nations was due to the terrain (though you can say that about all of Africa given how the Sahara Desert acted as a massive wall against the spread of knowledge in ancient times.) Ethiopia at the very least is catching up and they pretty much control East Africa in the same way Equatoria controls Central Africa and Liberia West Africa. Only little problems tend to exist (namely Liberia favoring the Yoruba while Equatoria favoring the Igbo and even then, they at least keep it to sporting matches that).

As a point of correction, Liberia was legally an American colony until 1876. It was administered by the Department of the Navy (so not quite analogous to the western territories, which fell under Interior after that department was created). Not many freed slaves were settled there until the Civil War, when Lincoln got Congress to heavily subsidize a colonization scheme. Independence was granted post Civil War when the freed slaves were the majority of the population due to the success of the colonization scheme, and, crucially, also American citizens after the passage of the 14th Amendment, enabling the creation of a territorial legislature. Congress passed the independence bill rather hastily after the Liberian legislature petitioned for statehood.

Yes, if Liberia had been made "independent" from the start, with only a handful of free slaves resettled, the place would have been a basket case, but my guess is that it would have been taken over by some European country who wanted a bit of African territory, with Germany or Italy likely candidates. In that case it wouldn't have developed differently from the other west African countries, despite the colorful history. It probably would have been a lot like neighboring Sierre Leone.

Well, initilaly like Sierre Leone. They joined Liberia back after post-colonialization, remember?

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

The political troubles between the African-American colonists and the natives were another matter

It might have helped if the Liberians hadn't decided to go off on a conquering spree against the natives. The time romanticized as the 'Wild East' or 'Savage Sahel' in Liberian media was very similar to the USA's manifest destiny, and had similarly tragic results for the natives, though they faced fewer diseases in Africa. Or if the Liberians had to conquer someone, they should have stuck to the Ashanti people- it was a lot easier to bring them into the Christian fold than the Tukolor were. The Tukolor got their home rule eventually, but it wasn't anywhere near soon enough IMO.

 

[Ellis MacVey]

It might have helped if the Liberians hadn't decided to go off on a conquering spree against the natives. The time romanticized as the 'Wild East' or 'Savage Sahel' in Liberian media was very similar to the USA's manifest destiny, and had similarly tragic results for the natives, though they faced fewer diseases in Africa. Or if the Liberians had to conquer someone, they should have stuck to the Ashanti people- it was a lot easier to bring them into the Christian fold than the Tukolor were. The Tukolor got their home rule eventually, but it wasn't anywhere near soon enough IMO.

Yeah, that definitely would've helped Amero-Liberian-Native relations...

Still, even though the historical background is pretty horrible, Liberian Eastern Films (which, for those of you who are unaware, are pretty similar to Westerns, but have a few rather remarkable differences, even excluding the obvious ones due to the different setting) are really good. Not saying that as a shallow attempt at justifying all that horrible shit, just putting it out there. You guys should really check them out!