DBWI: Jin Dynasty collapses after Wuhu Uprising?

Dorozhand

Banned
The Wuhu Uprising was a critical moment for the Jin Dynasty. The empire had been ravaged by the disorders of the Eight Princes and left in a very vulnerable state at the commencement of the invasion. It seems that the execution of the corrupt Sima Yue at the hands of the Imperial guard after his plot to replace them with his own forces was laid bare triggered a change in Emperor Ming, and his successful Northern Campaign and highly active and aggressive preservation of the dynasty and its unification were primarily a result of this.

What if Sima Yue had gone on controlling Emperor Ming and the Jin state had ineffective leadership going into the crisis? Could the Xiongnu have destroyed Jin in an earlier version of what happened with the Khitan invasion and the dynasty, along with one of the greatest periods in Chinese history, been strangled in its cradle?

(OOC: Ming di is OTL Huai di)
 
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Jiangnan after the decades under Sun Quan is sufficiently developed to serve as a power center independent of Northern China. Even if the war of the Eight princes takes a turn for the worse and Prince of Donghai somehow brings the Jin into a bigger mess, there is nothing that can change that will stop the elites from fleeing south and putting together a Southern Dynasty.
 
But the exodus towards the south of the Yangtze would effectively destroy any hope for realistic reclamation.

While the predominately Northern steppe cavalry of the Wuhu would not mount any effectual assault upon an easily-managed Yangtze defensive (OC: we're assuming none the Jurchen and Mongol stuff happening IOTL), the reverse would also hold true. That any surviving Southern Dynasty would not have the capability to mount a proper offensive measure when they lack the Northern horsemen until at least the advent of massed pike-formations supported with crossbows.

That would result in centuries division in China, possibly even longer, essentially changing China as we know it. A sharp difference in culture would be observed along the Yangtze, whether it be culture, dress/fashion, culinary arts, or even language, perhaps those North of the river would speak in a barbaric-tongue unrecognizable compared to the 雅言

(OC, OTL apparently the ancient Chinese is more similar to Cantonese than Mandarin, with the latter mixed with some hefty foreign influences, not that I'm happy with it)

Furthermore, the influx of the land-owning castes in the North such the Wang and Xie clan would inadvertently clash with the established clans of the south such as the Zhu, Zhou, Lu etc... These families that have been active since the time of the False-Wu regime would not easily bend to the Imperial authority and the Northern clans, possibly causing further dissarray in the Southern courts.
 
But the exodus towards the south of the Yangtze would effectively destroy any hope for realistic reclamation.

While the predominately Northern steppe cavalry of the Wuhu would not mount any effectual assault upon an easily-managed Yangtze defensive (OC: we're assuming none the Jurchen and Mongol stuff happening IOTL), the reverse would also hold true. That any surviving Southern Dynasty would not have the capability to mount a proper offensive measure when they lack the Northern horsemen until at least the advent of massed pike-formations supported with crossbows.

That would result in centuries division in China, possibly even longer, essentially changing China as we know it. A sharp difference in culture would be observed along the Yangtze, whether it be culture, dress/fashion, culinary arts, or even language, perhaps those North of the river would speak in a barbaric-tongue unrecognizable compared to the 雅言

(OC, OTL apparently the ancient Chinese is more similar to Cantonese than Mandarin, with the latter mixed with some hefty foreign influences, not that I'm happy with it)

Furthermore, the influx of the land-owning castes in the North such the Wang and Xie clan would inadvertently clash with the established clans of the south such as the Zhu, Zhou, Lu etc... These families that have been active since the time of the False-Wu regime would not easily bend to the Imperial authority and the Northern clans, possibly causing further dissarray in the Southern courts.
I think things are even grimmer than that.An army with a large cavalry force can choose when and where an engagement takes place.An infantry-based military force with pikemen and crossbows have no such luxury.Furthermore,the enemy force can also build their own army with pikemen and crossbows,on top of having a strong cavalry.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
I think things are even grimmer than that.An army with a large cavalry force can choose when and where an engagement takes place.An infantry-based military force with pikemen and crossbows have no such luxury.Furthermore,the enemy force can also build their own army with pikemen and crossbows,on top of having a strong cavalry.

While possible, it is an edge case. The Khitan were exceptional in this regard and it is the reason they were able to conquer all of China in 654, but only under the leadership of one of the greatest tacticians of all time. Emperor Gao of Yan was a one in a millIon figure who was able to adopt Chinese and Korean ways of war to conquer the south, and was sufficiently secure in the north to dedicate all his efforts in that direction.
 
While possible, it is an edge case. The Khitan were exceptional in this regard and it is the reason they were able to conquer all of China in 654, but only under the leadership of one of the greatest tacticians of all time. Emperor Gao of Yan was a one in a millIon figure who was able to adopt Chinese and Korean ways of war to conquer the south, and was sufficiently secure in the north to dedicate all his efforts in that direction.
OOC:The Khitans were originally a splinter clan from one of the Xianbei clans.So without the Wuhu Uprising,wouldn't it be more logical that they remain part of some Xianbei tribe or at least have a different name?
 

Dorozhand

Banned
OOC:The Khitans were originally a splinter clan from one of the Xianbei clans.So without the Wuhu Uprising,wouldn't it be more logical that they remain part of some Xianbei tribe or at least have a different name?

The Xianbei uprisings were defeated and the tribes scattered to the winds as the active and ambitious Ming di fought aggressively to secure Jin's northern frontier. The Kumo Xi were among them and the Khitan split off from them a bit earlier than otl. As Jin grew weaker later in its history the Khitan would arise to unify the former Xianbei in the north along with the Mongols under a brilliant leader and take advantage of a peasant uprising along the Yangtze and a dai viet uprising in the far south to conquer northern china. An attempt to regroup the dynasty in the south failed amid succession disputes and further uprisings and the Great Yan Dynasty swept down to conquer the rest of the country, adopting naval tactics from the Koreans and infantry tactics from Jin.
 
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