DBWI: Jeffersonian Church comes out in favor of same sex marriage.

In a landmark decision, the Jeffersonian church, an American Deist Christian sect has voted to allow same sex marriages in their church. Many right-wing fundamentalist sects have condemned the decision. The Jeffersonian church, which rejects the traditional bible in favor of "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" a version of the New testament first created by US president Thomas Jefferson, and which edits out all mentions of the supernatural, has come under fire from the fundamentalist community before, for it's rejection of the resurrection, it's acceptance of the theory of evolution, it's doctrine of "reason over faith" and numerous other ideological differences.

OOC: basically in TTL the Jefferson bible was well known earlier than in OTL, and lead to the creation of a now well established Deist sect in the United States.
 
In a landmark decision, the Jeffersonian church, an American Deist Christian sect has voted to allow same sex marriages in their church. Many right-wing fundamentalist sects have condemned the decision. The Jeffersonian church, which rejects the traditional bible in favor of "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" a version of the New testament first created by US president Thomas Jefferson, and which edits out all mentions of the supernatural, has come under fire from the fundamentalist community before, for it's rejection of the resurrection, it's acceptance of the theory of evolution, it's doctrine of "reason over faith" and numerous other ideological differences.

OOC: basically in TTL the Jefferson bible was well known earlier than in OTL, and lead to the creation of a now well established Deist sect in the United States.

This was a position of theirs as early as the late '80s, and I'm glad they've finally come out and said it publically. :)
 
Of course America's only two bordering countries , Quebec and Mexico, both heavily Catholic, lash out against the Jeffersonian Church's latest reformation.

Catholicism : Purely reactionary since the Council of Trent.
 
Of course America's only two bordering countries , Quebec and Mexico, both heavily Catholic, lash out against the Jeffersonian Church's latest reformation.

Catholicism : Purely reactionary since the Council of Trent.
It's not just the Catholics, but Evangelical Protestants that have lashed out against the Jeffersonians. There's even a growing number of Evangelicals who believe in the insane conspiracy theory that Jefferson himself was a Satanist, which is obviously garbage to anyone with the slightest understanding of history, but then these are the same people who say the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It all comes down to the Jeffersonian doctrine of "reason before faith" vs the mainstream Christian doctrine of "faith before reason". Of course the fact that the Jeffersonian church is more popular in left leaning states, and that Evangelical Protestantism is more popular in right leaning states is certainly a factor as well.
 
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It's not just the Catholics, but Evangelical Protestants that have lashed out against the Jeffersonians. There's even a growing number of Evangelicals who believe in the insane conspiracy theory that Jefferson himself was a Satanist, which is obviously garbage to anyone with the slightest understanding of history, but then these are the same people who say the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It all comes down to the Jeffersonian doctrine of "reason before faith" vs the mainstream Christian doctrine of "faith before reason". Of course the fact that the Jeffersonian church is more popular in left leaning states, and that Evangelical Protestantism is more popular in right leaning states is certainly a factor as well.

While Protestantism is common throughout the world Evangelicals do not have any state which espouses them as a state religion. Quebec and Mexico both have Catholicism as state religions and use it politically against the USA.

Also Evangelicals are pretty uncommon. Protestants vaguely resembling them are more common, but Evangelicals are very rare.
 
As a Quaker, I feel compelled to point out that we beat them. Neener neener neener. :p

Aside from that, this really shouldn't be that surprising. For all they go on about reason and such, they're not exactly making some bold step forward here. A majority of Deists have supported same-sex marriage for at least a decade, the only real surprise is it took so long to work through the hierarchy.

When Quebec or Mexico legalizes same-sex marriage, now that will be progress.
 
The one that always gets me is how the Evangelical right attacks the Jeffersonians as "un-American". They couldn't be more American! They where founded by a president, and a founding father to boot. What they're really saying is "they are against what we view as American values."
 
Of course America's only two bordering countries , Quebec and Mexico, both heavily Catholic, lash out against the Jeffersonian Church's latest reformation.

Catholicism : Purely reactionary since the Council of Trent.

Sad but true. Of course, not everyone in Mexico or Quebec is a reactionary: in fact there's a growing movement of reformists in both countries. It's just that the HIV scares of the late '70s/early '80s re-energized the bigots in their midst.....albeit now, they've been harder to dislodge.

It's not just the Catholics, but Evangelical Protestants that have lashed out against the Jeffersonians. There's even a growing number of Evangelicals who believe in the insane conspiracy theory that Jefferson himself was a Satanist, which is obviously garbage to anyone with the slightest understanding of history, but then these are the same people who say the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It all comes down to the Jeffersonian doctrine of "reason before faith" vs the mainstream Christian doctrine of "faith before reason".

This appears to be especially true in South Carolina and Mississippi where the Southern True Baptists are still fairly prominent.

Of course the fact that the Jeffersonian church is more popular in left leaning states, and that Evangelical Protestantism is more popular in right leaning states is certainly a factor as well.

Especially concerning both Californias, Oregon, Cascadia, Fremont, New Caledonia, Manitoba, Minnesota, Louisiana, Maine and Vermont for the former(my mom's home state of Assiniboia leans that way too, especially the Calgary area) and Miss., S.C., Ark., Durango* and Georgia for the latter(as well as the Piney Woods and around Breckinridge in East Texas).

As a Quaker, I feel compelled to point out that we beat them. Neener neener neener. :p

Aside from that, this really shouldn't be that surprising. For all they go on about reason and such, they're not exactly making some bold step forward here. A majority of Deists have supported same-sex marriage for at least a decade, the only real surprise is it took so long to work through the hierarchy.

When Quebec or Mexico legalizes same-sex marriage, now that will be progress.

I think so too. I mean, look at Russia for goodness' sake! They went from outright persecution of gays in the '50s to full, nationwide marriage equality by 1995(largely thanks to the SocDems like Gorbachev, Bakunin, Velikovsky, etc.)!

The one that always gets me is how the Evangelical right attacks the Jeffersonians as "un-American". They couldn't be more American! They where founded by a president, and a founding father to boot. What they're really saying is "they are against what we view as American values."

Yep. And ironically, Mexico in particular was leaning left-wing from 1952 until 1981 or so. Now they're run by a hardcore right-wing junta(and drug cartels. Nationwide marijuana legalization in 1992 helped end many the problems in this country, but the Central American states remain under siege) and Sonora, Durango, Coahuila, Juarez and Tamaulipas in particular were being swarmed with immigrants throughout the '80s and that is still happening a fair bit even today.

OOC: *Durango is TTL's Chihuahua, btw.....hopefully this is alright with you, fellas. :)
 
Sad but true. Of course, not everyone in Mexico or Quebec is a reactionary: in fact there's a growing movement of reformists in both countries. It's just that the HIV scares of the late '70s/early '80s re-energized the bigots in their midst.....albeit now, they've been harder to dislodge.



This appears to be especially true in South Carolina and Mississippi where the Southern True Baptists are still fairly prominent.



Especially concerning both Californias, Oregon, Cascadia, Fremont, New Caledonia, Manitoba, Minnesota, Louisiana, Maine and Vermont for the former(my mom's home state of Assiniboia leans that way too, especially the Calgary area) and Miss., S.C., Ark., Durango* and Georgia for the latter(as well as the Piney Woods and around Breckinridge in East Texas).



I think so too. I mean, look at Russia for goodness' sake! They went from outright persecution of gays in the '50s to full, nationwide marriage equality by 1995(largely thanks to the SocDems like Gorbachev, Bakunin, Velikovsky, etc.)!



Yep. And ironically, Mexico in particular was leaning left-wing from 1952 until 1981 or so. Now they're run by a hardcore right-wing junta(and drug cartels. Nationwide marijuana legalization in 1992 helped end many the problems in this country, but the Central American states remain under siege) and Sonora, Durango, Coahuila, Juarez and Tamaulipas in particular were being swarmed with immigrants throughout the '80s and that is still happening a fair bit even today.

OOC: *Durango is TTL's Chihuahua, btw.....hopefully this is alright with you, fellas. :)
All good points. You seem remarkably well informed. Are you a Jeffersonian yourself might I ask?
 
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All good points. You seem remarkably well informed. Are you a Jeffersonian yourself might I ask?

No, not officially(I agree with many of their beliefs, though), though my cousin(mom's side) is. She lives just north of L.A., California, and happens to be remarkably knowledgeable on world affairs, as well as anthropology(she once spent a summer in the Nunavut Commonwealth to live with a local Native American community), science, etc.; she's hoping to become a professor at ULA one of these days.

OOC: Think of Nunavut as this TL's equivalent of Puerto Rico, basically. :)
 
As a Quaker, I feel compelled to point out that we beat them. Neener neener neener. :p

Aside from that, this really shouldn't be that surprising. For all they go on about reason and such, they're not exactly making some bold step forward here. A majority of Deists have supported same-sex marriage for at least a decade, the only real surprise is it took so long to work through the hierarchy.

When Quebec or Mexico legalizes same-sex marriage, now that will be progress.

Aren't Quakers meant to be humble?

More on topic, the reason it took so long to become a major policy is two-fold. One the Jeffersonian church council (official the Church Forum) is full of old intellectuals so they still lag behind most social change by about a decade. And two the role of marriage in the Church itself is a routine debate. To the point of parody sometimes. It is really stressed the doctrine that the ceremony is purely an affirmation of love more then any real binding thing as God wouldn't really care about the couplings of mortals if it can be said to care about anything. My mom second wedding* (and first I guess) was Jeffersonian and it lasted a little over 15 minutes, once you cut out all the set up. More priests would I think prefer to do away with the whole thing rather then extend it.

*OOC Edit: Meant the ceremony didn't think that could be taken a few ways sorry.
 
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Aren't Quakers meant to be humble?

More on topic, the reason it took so long to become a major policy is two-fold. One the Jeffersonian church council (official the Church Forum) is full of old intellectuals so they still lag behind most social change by about a decade. And two the role of marriage in the Church itself is a routine debate. To the point of parody sometimes. It is really stressed the doctrine that the ceremony is purely an affirmation of love more then any real binding thing as God wouldn't really care about the couplings of mortals if it can be said to care about anything. My mom second marriage (and first I guess) was Jeffersonian and it lasted a little over 15 minutes, once you cut out all the set up. More priests would I think prefer to do away with the whole thing rather then extend it.

Very true. Though my aunt and uncle in So. Cal. have been married for about 45 years now and they're still as happy as ever. Anyhow, the good thing about Jeffersonianism is that it doesn't place this huge emphasis on rules & regulations as it does love, kindness and goodwill. So divorce is usually quite a bit less problematic than it would be in many heavily Old Catholic places(like Slovakia, Hungary, Moravia, Mexico post-1981, Sardinia, and Angola), or amongst the Traditional Protestants in the Southern U.S., parts of Australia, Germany, Austria(most of the Catholics lived in Vienna and other major towns by the time of the Council of Trent meetings in 1881 and many of them left Austria-Hungary following that; Austria proper has been majority Protestant since about the turn of the last century, and more Catholics left for Hungary when the Empire got Ottomanized in 1920.) and the former Rhodesia(damn, what a mess that place was!).
 
The Jeffersonians have tended to be a bit ahead of the curve when it comes to social issues compared to other Christian churches for quite awhile. They where the first church in the United States to ordain female clergy (unless you count Roman Catholic nuns) for example, and they did it way back in the 19th century, where as many sects are still heavily divided on the issue.
 
Ooc:
People seem to assume it would stay Deist and liberal.

Compare Baptists and Congregationalists. The Baptists were the breakaway liberals from the reactionary puritans. Today Baptists (especially the Southern ones) are as hard right as a major denomination gets, and the Puritans' direct descendants, the UCC, are the most liberal mainline denomination.

similarly, Free Methodists and Nazarenes broke from the Methodists to the left, and are very much to the evangelical right today.

It's entirely possible that an atl Jeffersonian church would have ended up eg supporting slavery, and being the church of choice for the KKK?
 
The Jeffersonians have tended to be a bit ahead of the curve when it comes to social issues compared to other Christian churches for quite awhile. They where the first church in the United States to ordain female clergy (unless you count Roman Catholic nuns) for example, and they did it way back in the 19th century, where as many sects are still heavily divided on the issue.

Very true. They were also the first church to condemn pro-slavery rhetoric, btw; Jefferson freed all of his indenturees in 1809, with James Madison following in 1812.

Ooc:
People seem to assume it would stay Deist and liberal.

Compare Baptists and Congregationalists. The Baptists were the breakaway liberals from the reactionary puritans. Today Baptists (especially the Southern ones) are as hard right as a major denomination gets, and the Puritans' direct descendants, the UCC, are the most liberal mainline denomination.

similarly, Free Methodists and Nazarenes broke from the Methodists to the left, and are very much to the evangelical right today.

It's entirely possible that an atl Jeffersonian church would have ended up eg supporting slavery, and being the church of choice for the KKK?

OOC: It's certainly possible that a breakaway sector of this church might possibly be far more willing to tolerate slavery. But partly due to the fact that this Jeffersonian church would be spread well across the country, it'd be nearly impossible to pull off. TBH, the main reason the Baptists went full-on conservative is because their power base remained in the South; they were never truly much more than a regional presence in the 19th Century. Same goes for the UCC: they became liberal because they remained a Northern institution as time passed on.

(However, though, it's also true that the African-American churches became quite a bit more moderate than the white churches over time.)

IC: Well, you did have the Reconciliationists who were fairly popular in the Deep South for their unwillingness to outright condemn slavery(although they were never outright pro-slavery, either, as that went against the very core of Jeffersonian teachings), but they died out in the 1880s, about two decades after slavery ended.
 
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