DBWI Italy joins the axis

October 13th 1940

Benito Mussolini was in chains.

A war between Germany and the allies had been brewing, and he had been given a choice, in the end he decided that a victorious germany would invitably turn on its former allies, expecially their Italian allies and when Hitler declared war. He declared war on Hitler.

France lost, The UK had been forced to flee europe and Italy simply wasn't able to resist the german war machine. All he could do was do a holding action in rome and help the vast majority of Italy's milatary, its entire navy, and the whole of Italy's jewish population flee to Lybia. Umberto the 2 King of Italy had like wise escaped to Lybia. The crowd was silent.

Hitler gave an hour long speech, about Germany's victory and he gave Mussolini one last chance to join the axis, one last chance to remain leader of his country with conditions of course. Camera's were on him, a swedish reporter was recording it all on a for the time advanced movie camera. The world was watching him. Mussolini was known for his speeches too, but his response was simply to spit in Hitlers face, he was hung with in the hour.

But what If Mussolini had said yes? How would world war 2 change? How would Italian history change, how would Italian culture change? What would the world look like if Italy had joined the Axis?
 
Considering the Italian performance and the sideshow the Mediterranean turned out to be, then the Germans might have lost the war.
 
Considering the Italian performance and the sideshow the Mediterranean turned out to be, then the Germans might have lost the war.

What made the Reich win the war was the murder of Adolf Hitler and his replacement with a far more competent - if not nearly as charismatic - Führer, I doubt Mussolini joining the Axis would've changed much; sure, today Italy would probably still have the southern half of Tyrol, and it would democratize far earlier than the 1970s.
 
Considering the Italian performance and the sideshow the Mediterranean turned out to be, then the Germans might have lost the war.

Well, luckyly for everybody while the Nazi had lost the second great war, their botched invasion of the URSS in 1942 signed their death warrant and the liberation of Europe from their joke; reagarding the italian performance while not impressive it was more or less on par with the Royal Navy and the RAF and frankly the origin of all the modern commonwealth special operation teams can be traced to the italian MAS.
Regarding the lucklustre perfomance during the invasion of French and Spanish North Africa, well, it was more due to logistic reason...at least after the UK basically reequipped the italian free army in Libya...but yes overall the Meditterean was a sideshow, it was in the eastern front that the final fate of Europe was decided, and in this scenario (and in the pacific front naturally) that an Axis Italy create a lot of changes.
With the Royal navy fighting Regia Marina in the mediterrean instead of left them to the French as planned, the Japanese will have much more possibility of success in their invasion of South-east Asia; Singapore was a very close affair and with the British forced to divert resources in Africa and Europe there is the strong possibility that Malaysia and the Dutch colonies will have fallen instead of fully repeal the Japanese invasion and occupy half of Indochina.
More importantly, while the German had conquered Italy...it was very costly for them, they had lost their entire paratroopers forces in the botched attempt to assault Sicily and the infantry loss in their three attempt to break the Alpine line were abysmall; basically without the italian campaign the invasion of the URSS can start an entire yearl earlier and this basically change everything.

What made the Reich win the war was the murder of Adolf Hitler and his replacement with a far more competent - if not nearly as charismatic - Führer, I doubt Mussolini joining the Axis would've changed much; sure, today Italy would probably still have the southern half of Tyrol, and it would democratize far earlier than the 1970s.

Sure Heydrich was very competent and smart enough to not antagonize Moscow and Washington till was ready...and unknow enough that it was still feasible to sign the 1941 armistice between the Entente and the Reich; sure both side perfectly understood that this was only a temporary ceasefire, but with Hitler in charge not even that were possible; but not even him can make miracles and beat the Soviet Union in their turf and the moment the British (and all the Free Europe forces) re-entered the war and invaded Spain and Italy the writing was in the wall.
Regarding Tyrol, frankly they can keep it, too much problem with the local population and frankly is not that Austria don't ask how high when Rome say: Jump, plus Italy had been compensated with enough territory in the former Jugoslavia and Greece to be safisfied
 
Well, luckyly for everybody while the Nazi had lost the second great war, their botched invasion of the URSS in 1942 signed their death warrant and the liberation of Europe from their joke; reagarding the italian performance while not impressive it was more or less on par with the Royal Navy and the RAF and frankly the origin of all the modern commonwealth special operation teams can be traced to the italian MAS.
Regarding the lucklustre perfomance during the invasion of French and Spanish North Africa, well, it was more due to logistic reason...at least after the UK basically reequipped the italian free army in Libya...but yes overall the Meditterean was a sideshow, it was in the eastern front that the final fate of Europe was decided, and in this scenario (and in the pacific front naturally) that an Axis Italy create a lot of changes.
With the Royal navy fighting Regia Marina in the mediterrean instead of left them to the French as planned, the Japanese will have much more possibility of success in their invasion of South-east Asia; Singapore was a very close affair and with the British forced to divert resources in Africa and Europe there is the strong possibility that Malaysia and the Dutch colonies will have fallen instead of fully repeal the Japanese invasion and occupy half of Indochina.
More importantly, while the German had conquered Italy...it was very costly for them, they had lost their entire paratroopers forces in the botched attempt to assault Sicily and the infantry loss in their three attempt to break the Alpine line were abysmall; basically without the italian campaign the invasion of the URSS can start an entire yearl earlier and this basically change everything.



Sure Heydrich was very competent and smart enough to not antagonize Moscow and Washington till was ready...and unknow enough that it was still feasible to sign the 1941 armistice between the Entente and the Reich; sure both side perfectly understood that this was only a temporary ceasefire, but with Hitler in charge not even that were possible; but not even him can make miracles and beat the Soviet Union in their turf and the moment the British (and all the Free Europe forces) re-entered the war and invaded Spain and Italy the writing was in the wall.
Regarding Tyrol, frankly they can keep it, too much problem with the local population and frankly is not that Austria don't ask how high when Rome say: Jump, plus Italy had been compensated with enough territory in the former Jugoslavia and Greece to be safisfied

How different would Italy be with out that image of Bennito spitting in Adolf's face?

Or as winston churchill called it his best speech?
 
Considering the Italian performance and the sideshow the Mediterranean turned out to be, then the Germans might have lost the war.
I am nit sure what are you talking about. Once Italians started to receive L-L tanks and aircrafts, especially they gave very good account of themselves during liberation of Italy. Italian Navy on other side was doing very well from start. Mediterranean was basically Allied lake and once Free French and Free Italian airforces were properly equipped Luftwaffe was done there.
Also we have to consider influence of Italians on French in North Africa. With Free Italians in Lybia, French in North Africa joined deGaull right in 1940.
 
How different would Italy be with out that image of Bennito spitting in Adolf's face?

Or as winston churchill called it his best speech?

Much depend if Germany lose or win, but even in case the Nazi end up victorious the image and the perception of Benny will be never great like OTL, as even in the best case scenario Italy will have end up as the premiere sidekick of Germany and not as a great power on her own and everybody know that (it was a reason for the DoW...plus Mussolini really really disliked Adolf and co., he considered some third rate copycat).
Today, regardless of political affiliation, the memory of Mussolini (or at least his final gesture) it's basically sacred to all the generations except probably the last...and (rough trans:) 'Go Down like him' is a popular saying for: keeping defiance and dignity to the last regardless of the condition
 
Leaving aside the debate of the Nazis taking power in 1933, a non Communist Russia boxes in Nazi Germany in a airtight container.

The presence of a Communist government was the only reason France could not recover a alliance with 'Russia' after 1933. Maybe a extremist Facist Russia would not have allied with France, maybe they would. With any other Socialist, Republic, oligarchy, or anything else a French alliance is a no brainier.

This pretty well stuffs WWII as we know it. The Nazis can either settle down and behave, or start with a two front war, if the Army does not intervene first.
 
Just rewatched Liberation were Umberto annouces the liberation of Rome and I was left wondering what would happen to Italy's monarchy if Italy had joined the Axis. I mean the liberation of the country by allied forces helped its legitamacy a lot would it still be around if they had been an axis country?
 
Just rewatched Liberation were Umberto annouces the liberation of Rome and I was left wondering what would happen to Italy's monarchy if Italy had joined the Axis. I mean the liberation of the country by allied forces helped its legitamacy a lot would it still be around if they had been an axis country?

As Benny, much depend if the Axis win or lose...in case of defeat the monarchy it's almost certain toppled as they were too entrached with the Mussolini goverment, said that even in case of victory their are not totally safe as Benny and co. were not too fond of the monarchy as institution as it was competition for power so a final showdown between the two it's unavoidable (and i bet on Mussolini in this case)
 
Today, regardless of political affiliation, the memory of Mussolini (or at least his final gesture) it's basically sacred to all the generations except probably the last...and (rough trans:) 'Go Down like him' is a popular saying for: keeping defiance and dignity to the last regardless of the condition
Hp8Bdga.jpg

This is a italian mussolini memorial, built in former fascist party HQ. Could this have existed if it wasn't for that final gesture?
 
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