DBWI: Industrialized Europe

Greetings from the Maratha Confederacy, everyone. I just got back from a vacation to Tenochtitlan, and I've been wondering what a world where Europe wasn't a technophobic theocracy would be like. I think that the best way to do this would be to somehow avoid the Papal War between the Roman pope and the Avignonan anti-pope. This war essentially centralized the Holy Roman Empire into a papal theocracy and turned the rest of Europe into its vassals. Another chance I can think of would be to make the Great War[1] less destructive. The HRE was beginning to reform, and without this war, it might have had a chance to modernize. Instead, the HRE was split into a number of smaller kingdoms like Prussia, Austria, and Bavaria, and now these countries are constantly fighting with each other. It seems like Al-Andalus[2] is the only good place to live, but people still need to worry about terrorist bombs by people from Aragon who are set on Reconquista.

How would the rest of the world fare if Europe industrialized? Would Bati Kita[3] get conquered? IOTL, the Ottomans performed terribly there. Even the Aztecs were able to defeat them. Would Maratha still get to colonize Vana[4]? Would the Ottomans, Chinese, and Japanese still colonize northern Bati Kita? Would the Inca and Aztecs still survive ITTL? What would a Great War analog look like here? What other ways would this world be different?
  1. Great War: A WWI analog with the Ottoman Empire, the HRE, the Aztecs, and Japan on one side, and Maratha, China, and the Inca on the other side. The Ottomans, HRE, and Japan lost. The Ottomans, Aztecs, and Japan both had to pay reparations, and the HRE was split up into various German states.
  2. Al-Andalus: A Muslim country in Ibera; the only developed country in Europe.
  3. Bati Kita: Turkish name for North America.
  4. Vana: Hindi name for South America.
 
I don't think Europe ever had a chance to industrialize. The cloth industry was the basis for industrialization here in Mysore, and Europe has only wool - much worse than cotton for cloth. How would they industrialize?

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
Honestly the place europe failed wasn't really in economics (those where a factor, just not the biggest factor). The biggest factor in my opinion is just how weak the European political system was. In almost all countries of importance there was a complex web of dual sovereignity and decentralized local strongmen who if they disagreed with the king could effectively break the state, if you want Europe to be able to compete you need to break their landed elite.

Honestly I'm gonna go against the grain and say that the Papal war actually helped Europes political situation. While it did ultimately end up being the straw that broke the camels back for the Holy Roman empire it's collapse led to the rise of many small centralized states that where capable of ruling themselves and in general when they expanded they didn't rule through local strongmen like the previous era's states.

You also really overstate the terrorist threat in Al Andalus. It's been dying down for decades now. It's just that disputes like that don't end in a day after the piece accords have been signed. Most Asturians and Aragonese recognize that they're never going to regain Al Andalus now.
 
Some scholars say Europe's failures are due to excessive political fragmentation. Other scholars say it's due to Europe's excessive centralization. It can't be both.

After the introduction of the printing press into Europe, many church theologians began to spread their writings across Europe quickly at low cost. If both Avignon and Rome didn't unite to crush them (say a particularly charismatic one played his king against one pope), this would lead to a reformation in the church and reduce its temporal powers.
 
I think it was inevitable that Asia industrialized first. Though not to say that Europe made no tech advancements, Asia far outstripped European technological advancement since the Romanoi fell in 7.. I want to say it was 752?
 
OOC: the term Asia is entirely a European construction to refer to everything east of the Bosporus. ITTL it won't be used by non-Europeans.
 
I would partake in this fascinating conversation, but here in the North we haven't yet industrialized to the point that internet is usable. Perhaps in a century or so when the Foreign Aid moneys reach the country we too can join the civilized world... somewhat. Now excuse me, I have to go wrestle with a bear that is trying to break my scythe!
 
You Finns! Every day the news reports on how another corrupt Finnish or Swedish bureaucrat siphoned off Ottoman foreign aid to their Cypriot bank account!

Maybe you should ask Norway for money, they have plenty of it judging by the decadence of Oslo.

OOC: Norway is like Dubai or Qatar, using its oil wealth in an extremely obnoxious and in-your-face fashion.
 
I would partake in this fascinating conversation, but here in the North we haven't yet industrialized to the point that internet is usable. Perhaps in a century or so when the Foreign Aid moneys reach the country we too can join the civilized world... somewhat. Now excuse me, I have to go wrestle with a bear that is trying to break my scythe!

OOC: Sigged.

EDIT: Damn too long.
 
You Finns! Every day the news reports on how another corrupt Finnish or Swedish bureaucrat siphoned off Ottoman foreign aid to their Cypriot bank account!

Maybe you should ask Norway for money, they have plenty of it judging by the decadence of Oslo.

OOC: Norway is like Dubai or Qatar, using its oil wealth in an extremely obnoxious and in-your-face fashion.

Where is this mythical land of wealth and power, o'spirit in my head? I've never even walked past nearest village so I've no idea if there are foreign lands beyond that the local news-crier shouts at us. Usually it is basically,"Those foreign devils are a threat and we must defend ourselves!...And wait for the money! After we've the money we'll conquer the world!"

OOC: Sigged.

EDIT: Damn too long.

OOC: Coolio. ;)
 
I think the biggest problem was the huge meteor that hit Europe in 1400. It couldn't have been worse luck with chunks of the thing breaking off and landing in every major European city. They probably would have recovered if it wasn't for the Decepticon invasion. Those things used the European people as target practice, and what little infrastructure was left over they destroyed. Thank heavens the Autobots chased them off and helped the rest of the world industrialize and modernize. I'm in Tenochtitlan and my people used to perform human sacrifice until Optimus Prime showed us that "Freedom is The Right of All Sentient Beings" Who knows what Europe would be like if that never happened.

Oh come on. No need to come in and be a dickhead. I mean this isn't even somewhat interesting like those trolls who would turn every DBWI into a post nuclear apocolypse scenario. It's just stupid.
 

Narnia

Banned
Oh come on. No need to come in and be a dickhead. I mean this isn't even somewhat interesting like those trolls who would turn every DBWI into a post nuclear apocolypse scenario. It's just stupid.

Oh, crap. I forgot I wasn't in the ASB forum.
 
Western Europe is full of sinning, they turned their backs of the one true faith and are paying the price. We Muscovites are prosperous and we have the almighty to thank for it, dont lump us together with those heretics.
 
Western Europe is full of sinning, they turned their backs of the one true faith and are paying the price. We Muscovites are prosperous and we have the almighty to thank for it, dont lump us together with those heretics.

Prosperous! You have roads and decent borscht, but you're not particularly prosperous. All you do is export natural gas and oil to us!

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
Why is this even asked? The High Lord of Norway made the appropriate cash payouts to the All Under Heaven Cuju Committee (OOC: Cuju is the ancient Chinese version of football/soccer) members who unanimously voted for Norway.
 
Prosperous! You have roads and decent borscht, but you're not particularly prosperous. All you do is export natural gas and oil to us!

Cheers,
Ganesha

Don't tempt the lord outsider, what will happen if we cease shipping black gold? Thats right your industry will collapse, you are too dependent! What you see as humble living amongst my people is a choice to live as true believers do, this "oil" is of no consequence to us, but your coin will go toward the building of houses of god rest assured.
 
How to industrialize Europe? Let me think...

Let's say instead of destroying the printing press, the Roman Catholic Church will somehow allow it.
Then, you need a great rupture in the Church itself because a rebellious monk demanded reforms will end up establishing a new religion.
How about the supply of coal and iron? It is said that some parts pf Europe are abundant in those resources.
 
Then, you need a great rupture in the Church itself because a rebellious monk demanded reforms will end up establishing a new religion.

IIRC, there was some people who tried to do exactly that, but all the Protestants were excommunicated and burned at stake. Maybe if the Pope was less brutal and/or successful in crushing that rebellion, it could have caused the rupture that you're talking about.
 
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