DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

[EternalCynic]

As you know, for most of the past 500 years most scientific, industrial, and cultural development in the world has occurred in the Caliphate or in Persia, most notably around the great Academies of Alexandria, Damascus, Baghdad, Samarkand, and Shiraz. In the past 200 years, the great empires of China and Japan have also quickly copied our knowledge and have often excelled at implementing these technologies. Just 20 years ago I couldn't have imagined Dazhong Cars made in Nanjing flooding the streets of Baghdad, or Toshiba electronics in every household in the Caliphate.

By contrast, the Christian civilizations in Europe seem to be stuck hopelessly in the past. I haven't heard of any scientific innovation or discovery from Europe in the past century. Last week I heard that English women will still not be permitted to drive, and that a par of Russian men were publicly hanged for being gay. That's awful, and maybe it reflects the backward nature of Christianity. What does everyone here think?

 

[Derekc2]

One quistion, was their any reason for you to tell us all that sence we already know it.

Another is it would be pretty diffictult for that to happen.

Maybe have the only first world european nation of Eastern Rome fall would help, with all of their information going to the westeners.

Maybe we can have Makizert be a turkish victory unlike in OTL where it was a eastern Roman victory. Maybe it'll have the christians couse an attack on the holy land and get information from those conflicts.

It's worth a shot.

 

[YLi]

Whoa there, I don't think that China and Japan "copied" the processes coming out of the Caliphate so much as there was a mutual exchange of ideas, in fact, it is entirely possible to accuse the Dar-al-Islam of copying a multitude of East Asian innovations. Who invented the transistor driven electronic abacus (1)? Who invented the cell phone? Who sequenced the human genome? Who invented the printing press?

Also, I wish to note that you are forgetting the tremendous contributions that Fusang (2) and Al-Anhuac (3) have made towards human progress.

Europe on the other hand seems hopelessly backwards and mired in violence. It probably has something to do with Christianity, which is an inherently barbarous religion. Although many of Jesus' teachings are socialist in nature, the New Testament seems to be mostly disregarded in favor of the Old Testament and primitive Germanic pagan customs. Another factor is culture. European culture is inherently violent and bloodthirsty and the excessive individualism prevalent in their ideal of society does not make for an environment mutual cooperation.

Of course, such "individualism" results in crushingly oppressive societies that stone rape victims and burn gays at the stake for witchcraft. Hypocrisy at its finest.

P.S: The Catholic Church controlling just about every center of learning east of Damascus doesn't help either. They were and remain reticent to share information. They had printing presses banned as heathen inventions and preventing the widespread distribution of books for more than two centuries after their invention.

~*~*~
(1): Computer
(2): Chinese North America
(3): Muslim South America
(4): World operates on the Islamic calendar

 

[d32123]

I recently read some book by this guy named Jamal something or other called Gunpowder, Germs and Steel which pretty much discredits the whole idea that Europe could have ever industrialized. You guys should check it out.

 

[LeX]

There's just something about the European character that IMO has prevented them from creating long-lasting civilization (well, barring the Romans, but that was a long time ago), much less industrializing.

I wonder, maybe places that are too far north just don't have the right preconditions for sustained development?

Christianity isn't really the root of their problem though, I mean Islam is still quite strong not only in the Arab or Persian lands but all around the world.

 

[EternalCynic]

I recently read some book by this guy named Jamal something or other called Gunpowder, Germs and Steel which pretty much discredits the whole idea that Europe could have ever industrialized. You guys should check it out.

I call BS on this one. There actually are significant industries in southern Europe, most of which is of low-cost nature designed to feed into the wealthy consumer markets of the Caliphate. By contrast northern Europe is still wracked by warlords, sectarianism, and insane theocracies. For Allah's sake, in Sweden the entire state propaganda machine is entirely devoted to proclaiming the King as the descendant of Jesus (1)! I don't think environmental factors are that important. Ireland, which converted to Islam in recent decades, has also emerged as a powerhouse industrial economy (2). Coincidence? I'm not sure.

(1) Sweden = OTL North Korea, with Christianity as the Juche analogue
(2) Islamic traders spread Islam to Ireland, where it formed a rather heterodox mix of Celtic spirituality with Islam

 

[YLi]

Christianity isn't really the root of their problem though

Uh...let's see the things the Catholic Church (which controls nearly all learning east of Constantinople) has done to suppress the spread of knowledge in Europe.

1.) Banned the use of the printing press, fearing that laymen might get their hands on copies of the Bible. They succeeded in keeping it out of Europe for 200 years.

2.) Suppressed the teaching of al-Jahiz's theory of evolution. Anyone that taught it was burned at the stake by the Inquisition. Anything based off of al-Jahiz, such as the sum total of modern biology is also frowned upon.

3.) Suppressed Chinese astronomical teachings because apparently, heliocentrism is some form of heresy. They only rescinded this order 25 years after man set foot on the moon.

4.) Encourages misogyny. Will to this day not allow a woman to lead men in prayer (which is the most important facet of European life). The Church teaches that men are inherently superior to women, not to mention the constant endorsement of honor killing and keeping women sequestered in their quarters so they can act as baby factories.

5.) Still promotes a belief in miasma and faith healing as part of Church doctrine 150 years after the invention of Germ Theory. Most of Europe's competent doctors seem to be educated in Cairo or Beijing for a reason.

 

[d32123]

I really don't think you can blame Christianity for the regressive views of the Europeans. It all comes down to the standard of living. I know it's hard to imagine, but I believe that if we had a Christian nation with a comparable standard of living to an Islamic one, it'd have similarly liberal social views.

 

[EternalCynic]

At least the Catholic Church provides a degree of order and hierarchy, otherwise there would be no industrial sweatshops on the coasts of southern France and Italy churning out cheap goods for Caliphate consumers. Northern Europe which became Protestant is a nightmare of Calvinist theocracies, warlords, or weird Eisenist (1) regimes. Today's Baghdad Times shows warring factions in Poland competing for, of all possible things, virgin women! How crazy is that!

(1) Eisen = Stalin-like figure in Germany

 

[LeX]

You know, this reminds me. It's really aggravating that the Chinese still insist on occupying after over a decade the hellhole known as the "Germanic Confederation" (1); I mean, that place has like ten different ethnic groups and will never be united no matter what you do with it. They've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, speak different languages, the entire culture between say, Pommern and Bavaria is vastly different. All the war is is a massive waste of money, but I guess it'll end only when the reigning Son of Heaven goes to the next world.

1= Comprises of OTL Germany and western Poland, currently under Chinese and allied occupation, with permanent naval bases at OTL Wilhelmshaven and Kiel housing the Ouyang (歐洋) Fleet.

 

[LeX]

Northern Europe which became Protestant is a nightmare of Calvinist theocracies, warlords, or weird Eisenist (1) regimes. Today's Baghdad Times shows warring factions in Poland competing for, of all possible things, virgin women! How crazy is that!

yeah, and when that guy died Germany just fell back into its multi-ethnic slaughterfest until the Chinese showed up.

I really don't think you can blame Christianity for the regressive views of the Europeans. It all comes down to the standard of living. I know it's hard to imagine, but I believe that if we had a Christian nation with a comparable standard of living to an Islamic one, it'd have similarly liberal social views.

I pretty much agree. Islam and Christianity do come from the same root after all.


OOC: The dictator Johann Eisen ruled Germany with totalitarian fervor for forty years. When he died, the country Balkanized and Sweden lost its last real ally.

 

[YLi]

You know, this reminds me. It's really aggravating that the Chinese still insist on occupying after over a decade the hellhole known as the "Germanic Confederation" (1); I mean, that place has like ten different ethnic groups and will never be united no matter what you do with it. They've been fighting each other for hundreds of years, speak different languages, the entire culture between say, Pommern and Bavaria is vastly different. All the war is is a massive waste of money, but I guess it'll end only when the reigning Son of Heaven goes to the next world.

The Germans deserve every second of night raids, drone strikes and random instances of slow slicing. Don't you remember what happened in Beijing on 2/21? Or do you just want to make excuses for sick, barbaric assholes who used nerve gas on women and children?

 

[d32123]

The Germans deserve every second of night raids, drone strikes and random instances of slow slicing. Don't you remember what happened in Beijing on 2/21? Or do you just want to make excuses for sick, barbaric assholes who used nerve gas on women and children?

Not to derail this thread any further, but one does not need to be a terrorist sympathizer to feel bad for the innocent German civilians who get murdered by our drone attacks. It's not their fault that Otto von Löwen maniac and his network of religious fanatics had that bomb set off.

 

[EternalCynic]

The Germans deserve every second of night raids, drone strikes and random instances of slow slicing. Don't you remember what happened in Beijing on 2/21? Or do you just want to make excuses for sick, barbaric assholes who used nerve gas on women and children?

I don't think it's as simple as that. When Eisen ruled Germany, there was at least some security and dignity among Germans. Once he died, the Caliphate, India, and China started to rather blatantly use the resulting ethnic and religious problems to grab pieces of Europe for themselves. The parts of Europe which weren't ruled by puppet regimes in post-Eisenist Europe were safe havens for groups like the Apostle's Disciples. And all this while ignoring the fact that chemical weapons disappeared during the chaos.

I can tell you that the German immigrants here in Hangzhou are among the most creative and diligent people I've ever met. Pity the useless Chinese politicians who are too busy shuffling money to their Ryukyu Bank Accounts to solve the country's problems use them as a scapegoat.

 

[Mumby]

I don't think Christianity is necessarily to blame, but the power-plays which have brought it to its current point as orchestrated by the Catholic Church. The British Spring which arguably started when Man overthrew its military dictator and is now spreading to the Isles, Scotland, England, Wales. Unfortunately the revolution looks to be collapsing in Kernow and Orcadia. But many of the revolutionaries have been inspired by interpretations of Christ's teachings which aren'r prescribed dogma in Catholicism. And the City-State of Wight (1) is one of the wealthiest states in the world and its largely populated by people of English descent.

(1) A Singapore equivalent, former Caliphate colony/trade station.

 

[Kaiphranos]

Europe has plenty of natural resources, so that's not the problem. And I'm not sure how far you can go with blaming culture or religion for the lack of a industrial revolution, as opposed to a scientific one. The Catholics may have some ridiculously outmoded views on evolution, but I don't see why they'd have any problems with the assembly line. (I mean, as long as male and female workers are properly segregated and so on.)

Perhaps the question should be: what sparked the industrial revolution in China and Dar-al-Islam, and how can we replicate that in Europe?

(Also, the mention of miasma reminds me: has anyone else heard of an article by Tsao Zhangqi on the development of miasma theory? He suggests that it might be why large parts of Europe were spared from the Great Plagues--the doctors thought that "bad air" might be carried in the lungs of travellers from afflicted regions, and so they actually developed an effective quarantine strategy...)

 

[Maponus]

This thread is dripping with Christianiaphobia, which I need not remind broad members is a form of racialism, and needs to be locked.

Seriously guys at least keep it in chat.

 

[wolf_brother]

Perhaps the question should be: what sparked the industrial revolution in China and Dar-al-Islam, and how can we replicate that in Europe?

Well the standard answer here is the one we're all familiar with; the Mongol Empire allowed for the transfer of ideas, and peoples, from across all of Asia, something which the Europeans missed out on. Then, in the aftermath of the breakup of the Great Continental Empire, just as the rest of Asia was breaking down into the various competing states which forced progress, Christendom (mostly) united under their holy empire, which stagnated. Basically the European peninsula missed out on the great one-two punch forward that the rest of Asia made.

Not saying I agree with such, but that's certainly the line I got while studying for my examinations. I'm not so sure; we know China before the rise of the southern dynasties was a unified state that spanned from Annam to Siberia, but it was also one of the most powerful and advanced empires. So I'm not so keen to buy into the line that Europe was left behind because it was too big.

 

[YLi]

I don't think it's as simple as that. When Eisen ruled Germany, there was at least some security and dignity among Germans. Once he died, the Caliphate, India, and China started to rather blatantly use the resulting ethnic and religious problems to grab pieces of Europe for themselves. The parts of Europe which weren't ruled by puppet regimes in post-Eisenist Europe were safe havens for groups like the Apostle's Disciples. And all this while ignoring the fact that chemical weapons disappeared during the chaos.

I can tell you that the German immigrants here in Hangzhou are among the most creative and diligent people I've ever met. Pity the useless Chinese politicians who are too busy shuffling money to their Ryukyu Bank Accounts to solve the country's problems use them as a scapegoat.

Since when has the Imperial Mandarinate been useful in the last 2000 years? They dawdled too long on deploying the military to secure Germany's stocks of chemical weapons in any event.

Not saying I agree with such, but that's certainly the line I got while studying for my examinations. I'm not so sure; we know China before the rise of the southern dynasties was a unified state that spanned from Annam to Siberia, but it was also one of the most powerful and advanced empires. So I'm not so keen to buy into the line that Europe was left behind because it was too big.

China routinely fragments and reunites every few hundred years. It's all part of the dynastic cycle.

 

[Kaiphranos]

Well the standard answer here is the one we're all familiar with; the Mongol Empire allowed for the transfer of ideas, and peoples, from across all of Asia, something which the Europeans missed out on. Then, in the aftermath of the breakup of the Great Continental Empire, just as the rest of Asia was breaking down into the various competing states which forced progress, Christendom (mostly) united under their holy empire, which stagnated. Basically the European peninsula missed out on the great one-two punch forward that the rest of Asia made.

Hmm. So what if we send the Mongols west, then? They'll get the benefits of integration with the rest of Eurasia, and Mongol conquest ought to shake up European institutions like the Church.