DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

[Derekc2]

Well Erie is on the other side of Europe after we were not just right over the border from Constantinople infact the New World is just a little farther away.

Moving through all of Europe would have been a death march and quite frankly me and my mother didnt want to see any more third world (we coulnt afford a plane)

My Mother got lucky when she got a job around Dublin for a low level trans sea company usually my mother's crew was assigned for Albion (what you call Firanja) but we were assigned to a much larger ship that took us to the arab colonies. We had a difficult time adapting to a much different culture that was breathtakingly secular. We were pretty much illegal immigrants so we hitch hiked to the border and sneaked into Fusang. Here the Immigration Policies are much friendlier to Europeans.

It has been very hard to change to this new culture but it is much better than Erie. I am luck enough that the government will pay for me to get a higher education, so my mother will live in a much better apartment than where we are now..

Oh yeah, it's at the other side of europe. "facepalm at my own foolishness" Sometime's I forget that their are a lot of people less fortunate than I. I need to learn to see the world from the eyes of the lower classes as well as from the upper classes where I decend from.

Sence I'm trying to learn how to see the world from a bottom up as well as my present veiw of up down. If it's ok with you may I ask some quistions from what it's like to live in the lower classes?

 

[Kaiphranos]

OOC: Is it not possible for people to stay on topic in this world? I really like the concept of DBWIs as a way of exploring both how OTL turned out the way it did and how it could have been different, but I will admit that all the full-blown roleplaying stuff can kind of bug me. Yes, it's fun to add in some details about the world, but I find that a little bit of that goes a long way--hint at it, don't spell it out. Let your imagination fill in the blank spaces, rather than bringing up "your" personal connection to every single *historical event since the POD.

Or, to look at this from another way: is this how people behave in WI threads on this OTL board? I expect you could go into 75% of them and no one will mention what it's like to live in their countries or bring up random current events, because people already know about that sort of thing, and take it for granted. Does one spell out the entire history of WWII in every thread for the benefit of anyone from an ATL who might be reading it?

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Don't let me spoil your fun; I'm probably taking this far too seriously.

 

[Tsochar]

"shudders" I can't imagine the horrors that it must be to live in western Europe. Or the majority of europe for that matter. The Balkans were really lucky to be under Eastern Roman control and I was really lucky to be born in the first world. God I don't know if I could survive that horror I hear just over the Imperial Northern Border.

Wait couldn't you just had moved to the Eastern Roman Empire? It's closer than Asia. It's also christian so it probibly would had been easier to get accustumed to.

Most Europes countries today living good, is democracy. Violence storys not true, are Eastern propaganda. Easter propaganda fucker fuck off.

I live in Norther Spain, never have once seen a violence. Violence not in Europa, European will rule world.

 

[Derekc2]

Most Europes countries today living good, is democracy. Violence storys not true, are Eastern propaganda. Easter propaganda fucker fuck off.

I live in Norther Spain, never have once seen a violence. Violence not in Europa, European will rule world.

OOC: Oh my god, this is so hilarious! Will their be "not throwing banana" type of comment soon?

That was awesome.

IC: Strange, sence last I check, that guy was from western Europe.

Also would the Eastern Roman empire rule the world with you latins.

 

[Bergil]

(image deleted)
Any European colonial effort, assuming that their tiny little skiffs could even make it across the Atlantic, would probably be operating on an absolute shoestring with no support from the homeland.

What you have to remember about those ships is that at the time most of the maritime powers in Europe were either on the Mediterranean or the Baltic. As such, they weren't designed to be subjected to the sort of conditions you'd see on the open sea. If there were people making long trips in the Atlantic, designs would improve quickly.

The problem is, unless they've found the Americas or can go all the way around Africa, there aren't that many places our hypothetical European traders could sail to on the Atlantic- which is probably part of what held them back IOTL, difficulty communicating with anything east of Syria means less opportunities to steal ideas. Of course this cuts both ways, so anything invented in Europe would probably spread slowly.

How plausible would it be fore a more successful Azerbaijan or even some sort of mega-Uzbekistan to maintain overland trade connections with somewhere in Eastern Europe? It's a long trip, so there'd have to be something worth having at the western end. I'm just flailing around for a way to have Europe more connected to the rest of the world.

 

[freethinker]

There was a legend from the 8th century that some celto pitcs went to the west it is documented in a poem..

Of course our people didnt have time for overseas ventures, from the 11th century on we fought a great war against the saxons and almost threw them from both Erie and Abilon, of course not entirely though as I know very well [2]

If the vikings made it to North America the Carvels could have been used to settle north America, if we stopped fighting each other.

To Toschar:
Bull Shit it was the Alfonso Regime that aided General Brown for years before he was killed and his gang dispersed, you and your inhumane theocracy wiping out whole peoples in the name of your church!

Seeing the different factions of Christianity and islam has taking dents in my faiths, The only people I can stand any more are the pagans.. Which have survived all of this time despite the monotheism

May I ask you member of the 50 pesa [1] army what happened to the Basques, or the Eudski oh we both know what happened to them spanish fucktard..

1: Parody of the Chinese 50 cent army
2: England by 1400 became a rump state with celts controlling Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall and the N.English Countryside
3. Spain is much like Sweeden but only worse as a catholic version

 

[YLi]

*snip*

OOC: Just as a note, it's been previously established that China is still an empire and that Spain has been replaced by Al-Andalus.

 

[Petike]

Oh for the love of--it'll be tricky, yes, but nothing like what you're implying. Politics change. Culture changes. And as for faith, what's to stop Christians from interpreting their bible with as free a hand as Muslims interpret the Koran? (The first person who brings up "I am the way" et al, I will punch in the face. Somehow.)

Ah, here we go again ! Now you'll pull out that baka argument about the aelopillum or whatever its called. Big deal ! A Roman toy that never caught on. Besides, Rome was the pinnacle of the European civilization. But Europe has gone downhill ever since. Europe didn't catch up quickly enough, it wound up being isolationist and introverted and whatnot. Their own fault. Serves them right, I say. In the end, we've triumphed, no matter what occidentalist nonsense some starry-eyed foreign culture freaks might pull out. In defence of Europeans, I don't agree with the fullmetal*, germs and firelances guy, I think he's generalizing it a bit too much. But I'm sure that Europeans just lacked the incentive. Unlike, say, us Nihonjins - who opened themselves to the world in the last few centuries and only profited from the early industrial revolution - the Europeans just turtled up, forbade a lot of scientific, cultural and philosophic imports. Gradually, their culture and might grew sterile, with delusions of grandeur. Indeed: How could we forget the awe on the Firanjans' faces once our ancestors sailed to their westernmost shores in our steam-powered ironclads ? Priceless.

OOC:

* literal translation of the Japanese term for steel, IIRC

Derekc2: Bless you for not having heard the term "O***mans". It's a patronizing slur for the Turkish (I'm not sure of the etymology), and I'm surprised it gets through AH's filters. Really, Petike's whole comment is over the line; can we please keep this a welcoming space for members of all races?

Another PC-speaking lunkhead that doesn't understand etnonyms within their historical context ? Oh my... Have it your way. But I'm surprised you and the rest of the PC crowd turn a blind eye to Kurds being assimilated under current Turkish policies, indicated by the mislabling title "Mountain Turks". Now that's a real slur !

*sigh*

I really should consider migrating to HA.com. It's bad enough that the board had started fawning over that animated Chunkwo nonsense about little magical pandas or whatever. Give me a break ! Erm, but I digress...

 

[wolf_brother]

OOC: Is it not possible for people to stay on topic in this world? I really like the concept of DBWIs as a way of exploring both how OTL turned out the way it did and how it could have been different, but I will admit that all the full-blown roleplaying stuff can kind of bug me. Yes, it's fun to add in some details about the world, but I find that a little bit of that goes a long way--hint at it, don't spell it out. Let your imagination fill in the blank spaces, rather than bringing up "your" personal connection to every single *historical event since the POD.

Or, to look at this from another way: is this how people behave in WI threads on this OTL board? I expect you could go into 75% of them and no one will mention what it's like to live in their countries or bring up random current events, because people already know about that sort of thing, and take it for granted. Does one spell out the entire history of WWII in every thread for the benefit of anyone from an ATL who might be reading it?

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Don't let me spoil your fun; I'm probably taking this far too seriously.

OOC: And a golden cookie for you.

 

[Tsochar]

To Toschar:
Bull Shit it was the Alfonso Regime that aided General Brown for years before he was killed and his gang dispersed, you and your inhumane theocracy wiping out whole peoples in the name of your church!

Seeing the different factions of Christianity and islam has taking dents in my faiths, The only people I can stand any more are the pagans.. Which have survived all of this time despite the monotheism

May I ask you member of the 50 pesa [1] army what happened to the Basques, or the Eudski oh we both know what happened to them spanish fucktard..

1: Parody of the Chinese 50 cent army
2: England by 1400 became a rump state with celts controlling Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall and the N.English Countryside
3. Spain is much like Sweeden but only worse as a catholic version

Alfonso was hero! Win indpendent from evil Islamic andalus! Eastern propaganda make him monster, tell lies. Truth will win over lies! Christ will win over eastern imperial fucker!

Nobody vascos die in Navarra. Still are vascos, are loyal European. Genocide is eastern lies fiary tale made up to discredit Christians, propaganda will fail

ALso, andalus is muslim imperial name, not is true Europa. Asturia will fight Andalus Empire and reclaim all Spain

OOC: Just as a note, it's been previously established that China is still an empire and that Spain has been replaced by Al-Andalus.

OOC: It's been established that there is an Al-Andalus as opposed to Spain, and that Al-Andalus is a nicer place than the rest of Europe, but IOTL the Umayyads never did manage to conquer the whole north of the peninsula; I'm figuring that this region maintains its cultural identity through the centuries even though it lost and regained its independence at least once, probably several times throughout history. "Spain" here is a politically charged word referring to the whole of the Iberian peninsula, typically used by Euro supremacists wanting to drive out the Muslims and reclaim the peninsula for Christianity, while Al-Andalus might just refer to the country proper. Asturias's state rhetoric claims that it will soon liberate the rest of the peninsula, and so the nationalists call their country northern Spain.

As for the comment that no terrorists are from Al-Andalus, I can see two solutions: either my character is right and there were no genocides or terrorists on the Spanish peninsula, or smjb's comment was slightly "no true scotsman" where al-andalus doesn't refer to the independent portion, and any Andalusian terrorists are designated Asturian. That is, of course, unless freethinker wants to retcon his claims.

 

[YLi]

Alfonso was hero! Win indpendent from evil Islamic andalus! Eastern propaganda make him monster, tell lies. Truth will win over lies! Christ will win over eastern imperial fucker!

Nobody vascos die in Navarra. Still are vascos, are loyal European. Genocide is eastern lies fiary tale made up to discredit Christians, propaganda will fail

ALso, andalus is muslim imperial name, not is true Europa. Asturia will fight Andalus Empire and reclaim all Spain

That lunatic Alfonso is currently receiving three square meals a day courtesy of the Andalusi National Corrections System. Alfonso can even eat pork three times a day because there is full freedom of religion in Al-Andalus and there are many non-Muslims who are perfectly ok with handling pork. I doubt Alfonso would extend the same courtesies to his fellow countrymen were he in a position of power.

There is no place called Spain. Not that I've ever heard of. There is a place called Al-Andalus and it is a startlingly beautiful and peaceful place. The so-called "Spaniards" in Al-Andalus, especially the National Front of Santiago, want to ruin a prosperous nation for the sake of bigotry and worship of some idiot whose sole accomplishment was to run afoul of the Romans and get nailed to a "t" shaped plank.

The reason why you've never seen violence is because the Andalusis don't believe in it and are willing to work towards something better. I'm sure you don't understand at all.

As for that other guy. Yue was an idiot. There will never be democracy in China, it just won't work. The Chinese aren't the Fusangese. Yue was executed and if I recall correctly, people who subscribe to his philosophy are put to death in accordance with Imperial Chinese law. It's not a good thing but it is what it is.

 

[Tsochar]

That lunatic Alfonso is currently receiving three square meals a day courtesy of the Andalusi National Corrections System. Alfonso can even eat pork three times a day because there is full freedom of religion in Al-Andalus and there are many non-Muslims who are perfectly ok with handling pork. I doubt Alfonso would extend the same courtesies to his fellow countrymen were he in a position of power.

There is no place called Spain. Not that I've ever heard of. There is a place called Al-Andalus and it is a startlingly beautiful and peaceful place. The so-called "Spaniards" in Al-Andalus, especially the National Front of Santiago, want to ruin a prosperous nation for the sake of bigotry and worship of some idiot whose sole accomplishment was to run afoul of the Romans and get nailed to a "t" shaped plank.

The reason why you've never seen violence is because the Andalusis don't believe in it and are willing to work towards something better. I'm sure you don't understand at all.

hahaha you eastern fucker so uneducated. Andalusi all are convert at sword point in VII century. Work together is part of Spanish tradition, heritage, and blood. Islsams force productive SPaniards work for Muslims, then trick make children and descendentc islams as well! and steal accomplishments. WIthout help of tricked Spaniard, Al-Andalus be poor backwards hellhole today.

Once islamic lies are destroyed by Christian truth, all Spain will be world power! Rescue Hero Alfonso from wrongful prison (Alfonso's only crime was be Christian and inspire other Christians; Andalus only "freedom religious" when muslim at top. Alfonso want Christ at top, Moslem fucker not tolerant, invent stories of war crime. You Eastern fucker propaganda fucker only believe Eastern lies.

 

[Derekc2]

Troll ahoy!

hahaha you eastern fucker so uneducated. Andalusi all are convert at sword point in VII century. Work together is part of Spanish tradition, heritage, and blood. Islsams force productive SPaniards work for Muslims, then trick make children and descendentc islams as well! and steal accomplishments. WIthout help of tricked Spaniard, Al-Andalus be poor backwards hellhole today.

Once islamic lies are destroyed by Christian truth, all Spain will be world power! Rescue Hero Alfonso from wrongful prison (Alfonso's only crime was be Christian and inspire other Christians; Andalus only "freedom religious" when muslim at top. Alfonso want Christ at top, Moslem fucker not tolerant, invent stories of war crime. You Eastern fucker propaganda fucker only believe Eastern lies.

May I ask? Are we eastern romans like the rest of the east becouse we are christian or are we considered eastern fuckers that are heritics to boot!?

 

[Tsochar]

May I ask? Are we eastern romans like the rest of the east becouse we are christian or are we considered eastern fuckers that are heritics to boot!?

Heretic is not problem for Christian, unlike Moslem . However, East Rome Empire is Imperialist eastern traitor fucker, sell out all of Europe to Moslem and Pagan hordes for profit! Abandon West Europe for dirty Arab gold Talk down to fellow Christian, is more Arab then European (genetic evidence say), is traitor. However, Western Europes now get economy power, is growing! In 100 years, Europe rule world, East Rome will be bad memory .

 

[eliphas8]

Hmm. A Christian super-al-Andalus? (Well, whatever they'd end up calling it.) Interesting idea, but I still would like to see a plausible scenario where northern Europe makes it big...

I doubt that a christian Al Andalus would be united, the Christian nations where terminally disunited and the breakaway princes in the region ended up dooming them to being conquered by the Almoravids. Even a more united Christian front would probably be divided into three kingdoms Aragon (now modern Zaragoza and Valance provinces), Castile (modern Toledo, Granada, and Cordoba provinces), and Leon (Galicia, Lisbon, Baja, Silves).

 

[Derekc2]

Heretic is not problem for Christian, unlike Moslem . However, East Rome Empire is Imperialist eastern traitor fucker, sell out all of Europe to Moslem and Pagan hordes for profit! Abandon West Europe for dirty Arab gold Talk down to fellow Christian, is more Arab then European (genetic evidence say), is traitor. However, Western Europes now get economy power, is growing! In 100 years, Europe rule world, East Rome will be bad memory .

What economic power exacly? Is it the power to be bannana republics. Becouse in that case you can keep it.

Also what arab gold are you talking about? Who uses the gold standart anymore?

In 100 years Europe will (hopefully) be part of the first world. It'll never secede in taking over the world. In matter of fact no one continent's people has ever seceded in that. It's flat out impossible.

Face it, you are living in fantasy.

OOC: Why hasn't their be any "no throwing bannana" like comment yet? Sence I can tell you are based on that guy for roleplaying this.

 

[FellowNerd]

Guys the Misplaced nationalism belongs on another forum at the very least make a post involving the topic before we start ranting on each other. I still maintain the thing that prevented Europe from emerging as an equal power to the East is Stability. In my last post I went on about it, and I believe that the best point to establish stability would either be stopping the invasion of the moors. I know it sounds crazy but hear me out. Prior to the creation of Al-Andalus The moors ransacked almost all of Gaul. Had they been stopped The then fragile Frankish Empire could have established a stronger hold on some of the areas and prevented the chronically unstable rule it would experience. Maybe it would last past Charlemagne[1]. Not much longer but longer and enough to give the people a sense of unity. And latter on when the continent was bursting at the seems with people they might direct their energies elsewhere instead of on their "brothers". Probibly on a weakened Al-Andalus based in Granada. I'm convinced that even with 100 years of stability Europe would allow Europe to recover giving it the chance to at least give the East a run for their money for Industrialization. And despite the disparaging remakes about his Holiness the Pope Peter III for banning the printing press, The catholic Church did represent a stabilizing force, at least till the reformation when radicals refused to discuss a true doctrine[2].

[1] Charlemagne was the last Frankish Emperor. When he died his "holy roman empire" fell apart and the power vacuum wrecked Gaul, Germany, and Italy for the next century.
[2] for those who are unfamiliar with the "reformation". A Monk by the name of Johan Wieder(wI-der) became a monk and after years he decided that the church was corrupt. Admittedly it was but Wieder went off the deep end and changed doctrine to the points where communion(a very important sacrament) was denied, salvation was limited in advance, denying free will. You get the idea. He went before the Arch-bishop of Tier and expected to get the Church to accept these heretical ideas. The Arch-Bishop agreed to address matters of corruption, and even discuss Wieder's ideas but Wieder was insulted to not get instant recognition. The pope tried to open channels to discuss and adress the corruption, but Wieder convinced the Duke of Holstein and King of Denmark to back him up and soon the reformation wars started. While the Church cleaned up its act mostly Wieder created his own church. In short it was Ikko Ikki in Japan taken to eleven.


BTW As much as I love Japan, after I graduate from the University of Edo I intend to return to Austria and try and help it finally stand on its feet. Partly for the odd looks I get for going to mass and being an almost 2 meter tall blonde, the other part is for the genuine love I have for my home country.
Also I swear not all Catholics are as off the deep end as Tsochar.

 

[eliphas8]

Alfonso was hero! Win indpendent from evil Islamic andalus! Eastern propaganda make him monster, tell lies. Truth will win over lies! Christ will win over eastern imperial fucker!

Nobody vascos die in Navarra. Still are vascos, are loyal European. Genocide is eastern lies fiary tale made up to discredit Christians, propaganda will fail

ALso, andalus is muslim imperial name, not is true Europa. Asturia will fight Andalus Empire and reclaim all Spain

Where the serine gas attacks on Menorca Naval Bases also eastern lies? Because I can remember the attacks pretty well.

 

[Tsochar]

OOC: Why hasn't their be any "no throwing bannana" like comment yet? Sence I can tell you are based on that guy for roleplaying this.

OOC: I almost did it just now, but then you spoiled it . Don't worry, it's coming. I just need to be set up to get really angry. More attacks on the theocracy, insistence on controversial political incidents, particularly ones implicating europeans, more mentions of terrorism, that sort of thing. That way I can post incomprehensible ranting denouncing it all as lies, which hopefully would be a long string of such comments. More commenters calling me on my trolling would also be nice.

What economic power exacly? Is it the power to be bannana republics. Becouse in that case you can keep it.

Also what arab gold are you talking about? Who uses the gold standart anymore?

In 100 years Europe will (hopefully) be part of the first world. It'll never secede in taking over the world. In matter of fact no one continent's people has ever seceded in that. It's flat out impossible.

Face it, you are living in fantasy.

IC: East Europe fucker still talk down! History forum member not know history, only knows fairytales ! Bribery of emperor Alexios in IX century, sold all European for Moslem fucker, allow Spain invade by fucker mohamed

And you not know European! European only need Christ, are superior.

 

[eliphas8]

IC: East Europe fucker still talk down! History forum member not know history, only knows fairytales ! Bribery of emperor Alexios in IX century, sold all European for Moslem fucker, allow Spain invade by fucker mohamed

And you not know European! European only need Christ, are superior.

What does any of this have to do with Megas Basileus Alexios ?! If you want to point to an emperor who "sold out" europe why point to the emperor who did the absolute most to push back the Turkish and in effect restore christian rule all of anatolia of all the emperors as the one who "sold out" Europe? Why not Alexios V, the guy who actually sold cannons and arms to the Andalucians during the reconquest of Barcelona?