DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

[Natte]

Are you sure about that? The east had some of the most powerful native states (the Iroquois and Powhatan confederacies) that put up the toughest fights against the Fusangese, while the tribes around the initial settlements on the west coast were just hunter-gatherers. I think your "United British" may be in for a tough time if they try to land...

Well the reason they were able to put up such resistance OTL was because they had plenty of time to recover from the Eurasian diseases and adapt, the Fusangese took quite some time to expand beyond the Beautiful Mountains (The Rocky Mountains).

If the United Britons arrive early enough they could easily take advantage of the Iroquois and Powhatan Confederacies before they had time to recover. But I mean, even if they did, they don't have the population of East Asia, I don't see how they could colonize the way fore example the Chinese did.

Plus would they even go there? From what I heard the Europeans at the time thought the Earth was flat (no joke), they thought they would fall of the planet if they went too far West. I don't know how true that is tho.

What was European shipbuilding like at the time tho? Have seen some pretty interesting pictures of some European designed ships from the time, they look a bit odd, but how seaworthy were they? I know the Vikings had good ships.

 

[YLi]

What was European shipbuilding like at the time tho? Have seen some pretty interesting pictures of some European designed ships from the time, they look a bit odd, but how seaworthy were they? I know the Vikings had good ships.

Any European colonial effort, assuming that their tiny little skiffs could even make it across the Atlantic, would probably be operating on an absolute shoestring with no support from the homeland.

 

[Derekc2]

Any European colonial effort, assuming that their tiny little skiffs could even make it across the Atlantic, would probably be operating on an absolute shoestring with no support from the homeland.

OOC: Now it makes me wonder, how where europeans able to colonise the new world with those ships?

 

[FellowNerd]

I'm an immigrant from Austria and my adopted home Japan is a very nice place to live. I always liked to compare history between Asian countries and European ones to figure out what went wrong in short it seams like this. In Asia if a country has a bad period they generally get two to three hundred years to recover in Europe it never got a chance to repair itself after the fall of the Roman Empire. Europe essentially has been raped for the last 15 hundred years. after the fall you have plague, barbarian invasion, plague, Muslim invasion, more plague, viking invasion, plague again, Over population, once again plague, mogul invasion, even more plague, the reformation, even more plague, you get the idea.

The Europeons are willing to live crappy lives if they can get stability and because Eisen is one of the few to actually succeed at establishing a stable regime we loved him. If we could keep that going I suspect Europe, or at least Germany, could industrialize. There were plans for large scale industrialization soon before his death. As I understand he kept it back because he was afraid of uncontrolled wealth flowing into the country and possible allowing revolt. Then he died and we all know how that turned out.

So I think if we could even prevent one of those mass invasions/plagues Europe could be a prosperous place. It had the population and resources all you need is a stable regime and it could work. The best bet would probably be either stopping the vikings and allow the anglo and saxon nobility to consolidate their lands, or stopping the reformation which gave even more excuse to declare war on each other

 

[Derekc2]

I'm an immigrant from Austria and my adopted home Japan is a very nice place to live. I always liked to compare history between Asian countries and European ones to figure out what went wrong in short it seams like this. In Asia if a country has a bad period they generally get two to three hundred years to recover in Europe it never got a chance to repair itself after the fall of the Roman Empire. Europe essentially has been raped for the last 15 hundred years. after the fall you have plague, barbarian invasion, plague, Muslim invasion, more plague, viking invasion, plague again, Over population, once again plague, mogul invasion, even more plague, the reformation, even more plague, you get the idea.

The Europeons are willing to live crappy lives if they can get stability and because Eisen is one of the few to actually succeed at establishing a stable regime we loved him. If we could keep that going I suspect Europe, or at least Germany, could industrialize. There were plans for large scale industrialization soon before his death. As I understand he kept it back because he was afraid of uncontrolled wealth flowing into the country and possible allowing revolt. Then he died and we all know how that turned out.

So I think if we could even prevent one of those mass invasions/plagues Europe could be a prosperous place. It had the population and resources all you need is a stable regime and it could work. The best bet would probably be either stopping the vikings and allow the anglo and saxon nobility to consolidate their lands, or stopping the reformation which gave even more excuse to declare war on each other

This is very true. My homeland (the Eastern Roman Empire) had the luck of being a stable, powerful nation. The Latins are very unlucky with what happened to them. So what was it like to live in Austria before you moved to Japan?

 

[FellowNerd]

I love my Homeland but we couldn't stay. My Dad was an nuclear engineer (didn't expect that did you) while my mom was a nurse. I miss my own tongue, but after Eisen died Austria broke off from the German Pact and china declared war it. it got real unstable. My dad was threatened by some guys who said they could ruin him, if he continued his work. They said they didn't work for the CCI[1] but they sure felt like they did. So we packed up and moved for Japan. Its a great place just don't piss off a Samurai.

[1] CCI: Central Chinese Intelligence

 

[latinist]

A few points

1. Everyone blaming Christianity for Europe's troubles really has to deal with the rapid success of Christian Ethiopia, whose economy is at this point on a level with the poorer parts of the developed world. Turns out, a Christian country can do fine, as long as it's not in Europe.

1b. In general, there's a huge, Africa-shaped hole in this thread.

2. There clearly aren't a lot of Jews on this thread either, as no one has mentioned the standard Hebrew-school theory for the poverty of the West: Eastern empires respect their Jewish minorities, and profit from their innovation, industry, etc., whereas Europe persecutes its Jews, driving them and their learning eastwards. (The religious version of this story, of course, is that G-d will not allow a land that persecutes the chosen people to prosper.) I'm not saying this is correct, and it's certainly not the whole story, but it's worth a mention.

3. On the original question, I think, again, Africa might be part of the answer. What if we start with some bloodier and less conclusive Caliphate-East Rome wars in the first centuy[1] than IOTL: can we end up with a North Africa that gets to rise on its own, without a connection to the Arab world, and still pagan, instead of Muslim. (Or can we even find a way to turn it Christian? ASB?) Then we go on a bit of a Moor-wank (as, we all know, posters on AH love to do), take over the Italian and Iberian peninsulas and maybe a bit more of Western Europe (keeping well clear of Germany, which has always been more trouble than its worth), and we could end up with a large, stable Western power. PLUS, the conquest of Rome should reduce the power of the popes: as I said, I don't blame Christianity for Europe's condition, but it's hard to deny that less power for the papacy would mean a healthier society. PLUS, maybe we replace some of those sclerotic, first-son monarchies with healthier forms of government. And then, after a few centuries we bring in the printing press from the East (someone more knowledgeable can suggest the great books -- in Latin! -- that change the world), and eventually we end up with Spanish assembly lines, and railways from Naples to Paris. Does it work? (And is it cheating that this doesn't do much for Northern Europe, which seems like the more difficult case?)

[1] OOC: that is, the seventh century OTL
IC: Please, can we stop with the "Christian years?" I understand the desire to respect other people's traditions, but it just makes the whole thing too confusing.

 

[Kaiphranos]

1. Everyone blaming Christianity for Europe's troubles really has to deal with the rapid success of Christian Ethiopia, whose economy is at this point on a level with the poorer parts of the developed world. Turns out, a Christian country can do fine, as long as it's not in Europe.

Yeah, I think we've shown by now that Christianity, in and off itself, is not a bar to economic success.

1b. In general, there's a huge, Africa-shaped hole in this thread.

This is a good point, though of course most of Africa (barring Egypt and a few other places) was not affected by the first wave of industrialization in OTL. Still, it might provide some parallels for Europe later on...

2. There clearly aren't a lot of Jews on this thread either, as no one has mentioned the standard Hebrew-school theory for the poverty of the West: Eastern empires respect their Jewish minorities, and profit from their innovation, industry, etc., whereas Europe persecutes its Jews, driving them and their learning eastwards. (The religious version of this story, of course, is that G-d will not allow a land that persecutes the chosen people to prosper.) I'm not saying this is correct, and it's certainly not the whole story, but it's worth a mention.

Hmm. On the surface, it's an appealing theory, but I think it's a little Hebrew-centric. I think you'll find that the success of the east comes from toleration of everyone, not just Jews--Christians of various stripes, immigrants from Africa and the Indies, odd Muslim sects, etc. Besides, having a significant Jewish minority doesn't seem to have helped the Russian states...

3. On the original question, I think, again, Africa might be part of the answer. What if we start with some bloodier and less conclusive Caliphate-East Rome wars in the first centuy[1] than IOTL: can we end up with a North Africa that gets to rise on its own, without a connection to the Arab world, and still pagan, instead of Muslim. (Or can we even find a way to turn it Christian? ASB?) Then we go on a bit of a Moor-wank (as, we all know, posters on AH love to do), take over the Italian and Iberian peninsulas and maybe a bit more of Western Europe (keeping well clear of Germany, which has always been more trouble than its worth), and we could end up with a large, stable Western power. PLUS, the conquest of Rome should reduce the power of the popes: as I said, I don't blame Christianity for Europe's condition, but it's hard to deny that less power for the papacy would mean a healthier society. PLUS, maybe we replace some of those sclerotic, first-son monarchies with healthier forms of government. And then, after a few centuries we bring in the printing press from the East (someone more knowledgeable can suggest the great books -- in Latin! -- that change the world), and eventually we end up with Spanish assembly lines, and railways from Naples to Paris. Does it work? (And is it cheating that this doesn't do much for Northern Europe, which seems like the more difficult case?)

Hmm. A Christian super-al-Andalus? (Well, whatever they'd end up calling it.) Interesting idea, but I still would like to see a plausible scenario where northern Europe makes it big...

 

[Derekc2]

1. Everyone blaming Christianity for Europe's troubles really has to deal with the rapid success of Christian Ethiopia, whose economy is at this point on a level with the poorer parts of the developed world. Turns out, a Christian country can do fine, as long as it's not in Europe.

1b. In general, there's a huge, Africa-shaped hole in this thread.

2. There clearly aren't a lot of Jews on this thread either, as no one has mentioned the standard Hebrew-school theory for the poverty of the West: Eastern empires respect their Jewish minorities, and profit from their innovation, industry, etc., whereas Europe persecutes its Jews, driving them and their learning eastwards. (The religious version of this story, of course, is that G-d will not allow a land that persecutes the chosen people to prosper.) I'm not saying this is correct, and it's certainly not the whole story, but it's worth a mention.

3. On the original question, I think, again, Africa might be part of the answer. What if we start with some bloodier and less conclusive Caliphate-East Rome wars in the first centuy[1] than IOTL: can we end up with a North Africa that gets to rise on its own, without a connection to the Arab world, and still pagan, instead of Muslim. (Or can we even find a way to turn it Christian? ASB?) Then we go on a bit of a Moor-wank (as, we all know, posters on AH love to do), take over the Italian and Iberian peninsulas and maybe a bit more of Western Europe (keeping well clear of Germany, which has always been more trouble than its worth), and we could end up with a large, stable Western power. PLUS, the conquest of Rome should reduce the power of the popes: as I said, I don't blame Christianity for Europe's condition, but it's hard to deny that less power for the papacy would mean a healthier society. PLUS, maybe we replace some of those sclerotic, first-son monarchies with healthier forms of government. And then, after a few centuries we bring in the printing press from the East (someone more knowledgeable can suggest the great books -- in Latin! -- that change the world), and eventually we end up with Spanish assembly lines, and railways from Naples to Paris. Does it work? (And is it cheating that this doesn't do much for Northern Europe, which seems like the more difficult case?)

[1] OOC: that is, the seventh century OTL
IC: Please, can we stop with the "Christian years?" I understand the desire to respect other people's traditions, but it just makes the whole thing too confusing.

Hey why did you use the Ethiopian example and not my homeland (the Eastern Roman Empire) as an example. Also the reason I use christian years is becouse that's the only calender I know.

 

[smjb]

Plus would they even go there? From what I heard the Europeans at the time thought the Earth was flat (no joke), they thought they would fall of the planet if they went too far West. I don't know how true that is tho..

Don't fall for that racist crap--it is not only a lie, it is a stupid lie. Anyone who has ever so much as gone out onto the open ocean or watched the phases of the moon and has eyes and a functional brain can deduce that the Earth is at very least lense-shaped, probably spherical.

 

[Petike]

I don't mean to sound rude towards other cultures, but the very thought of those (pardon the expression) hay-haired gaijins inventing anything as complicated as a steam engine strikes me as utterly far-fetched. They had the resources for it, yes... But their ignorance and barbaric ways were too much of a barrier to the reasonable use of those resources for any meaningful scientific progress. Honestly, they even had to copy (no doubt steal) the idea of electric batteries from the Bharatians - how pathetic and non-innovative can you get ? No offense, the Firan... erm, Europeans... are an industrious civilization, sure - but not a very clever one. Their politics, culture and faiths have little trust in progress. And it shows. Now, the Ottomans... That's a wholly different thing. Backwards as they were, they caught up with the rest of Asia fairly quickly. The Europeans are a borderline failure, the Ottomans are a success story.

OOC: Just to make the discussion a bit more realistic, I'll roleplay a somewhat prejudiced ATL Japanese AH fan.

 

[Derekc2]

I don't mean to sound rude towards other cultures, but the very thought of those (pardon the expression) hay-haired gaijins inventing anything as complicated as a steam engine strikes me as utterly far-fetched. They had the resources for it, yes... But their ignorance and barbaric ways were too much of a barrier to the reasonable use of those resources for any meaningful scientific progress. Honestly, they even had to copy (no doubt steal) the idea of electric batteries from the Bharatians - how pathetic and non-innovative can you get ? No offense, the Firan... erm, Europeans... are an industrious civilization, sure - but not a very clever one. Their politics, culture and faiths have little trust in progress. And it shows. Now, the Ottomans... That's a wholly different thing. Backwards as they were, they caught up with the rest of Asia fairly quickly. The Europeans are a borderline failure, the Ottomans are a success story.

OOC: Just to make the discussion a bit more realistic, I'll roleplay a somewhat prejudiced ATL Japanese AH fan.

First thing, who are the ottomons? Second, have you forgotten the Eastern Roman Empire? Third the latins had the misfortune of countless invasions and unstable politics.

Really I feel sory for the latins.

OOC: Their are no Ottomons. The POD was a victory for the Byzantine Empire at Makizert.

Also I'm roleplaying a sympathetic and reliougus Eastern Roman teenage aristrocrat.

 

[smjb]

I don't mean to sound rude towards other cultures, but the very thought of those (pardon the expression) hay-haired gaijins inventing anything as complicated as a steam engine strikes me as utterly far-fetched. They had the resources for it, yes... But their ignorance and barbaric ways were too much of a barrier to the reasonable use of those resources for any meaningful scientific progress. Honestly, they even had to copy (no doubt steal) the idea of electric batteries from the Bharatians - how pathetic and non-innovative can you get ? No offense, the Firan... erm, Europeans... are an industrious civilization, sure - but not a very clever one. Their politics, culture and faiths have little trust in progress. And it shows. Now, the Ottomans... That's a wholly different thing. Backwards as they were, they caught up with the rest of Asia fairly quickly. The Europeans are a borderline failure, the Ottomans are a success story.

OOC: Just to make the discussion a bit more realistic, I'll roleplay a somewhat prejudiced ATL Japanese AH fan.

Oh for the love of--it'll be tricky, yes, but nothing like what you're implying. Politics change. Culture changes. And as for faith, what's to stop Christians from interpreting their bible with as free a hand as Muslims interpret the Koran? (The first person who brings up "I am the way" et al, I will punch in the face. Somehow.)

OOC: That is a good idea.

 

[latinist]

Ooh, or maybe we're going at this the wrong way: what if we *delay* the industrial revolution until the West has more time to catch up? What kind of awful developments could set the Eastern world back a couple centuries? Maybe delay the discovery of Fusang (easy enough to sink Zheng He, it's practically an AH cliche by now) a century or so, cutting off that source of wealth; then maybe an even longer, bloodier, and more destructive round of Taiping wars than IOTL, some other wars and disasters -- can we make Asia miserable enough that even the Germans pity us?

PS: I brought up Ethiopia because, as mentioned above, East Rome's success has had a lot to do with its long-standing links to the Arab world. Ethiopia seems like more of properly Christian success story. No offense meant.

 

[latinist]

Derekc2: Bless you for not having heard the term "O***mans". It's a patronizing slur for the Turkish (I'm not sure of the etymology), and I'm surprised it gets through AH's filters. Really, Petike's whole comment is over the line; can we please keep this a welcoming space for members of all races?

OOC: fixed that?

 

[Derekc2]

Derekc2: Bless you for not having heard the term "O***mans". It's a patronizing slur for the Turkish (I'm not sure of the etymology), and I'm surprised it gets through AH's filters. Really, Petike's whole comment is over the line; can we please keep this a welcoming space for members of all races?

OOC: fixed that?

Why did Petike insult the turkish people? They are really kind people who are unlike us are a lot more merry and happy and exellent cooks. I'm surprised and discusting that their are people who are hating on such a kind people.

OOC: I think in this world the Eastern Romans have the german steriotype of being efficent and hardworking and not being funny (don't know why but I just do) whille the Turkish people have the steritoype of being both fun loving and happy people and exellent cooks.

Also when their an eastern roman and an Turk in fiction expect the two to be best friends becouse it's a steritype that the turks and the eastern romans are really close. Which is true actually in this world.

But when it's an Itallian and an Eastern Roman in fiction, their will be blood.

 

[freethinker]

I am PISSED OFF...

Man I am not sure if this the place for this but please left a pitiful barbarian let out.

I was born in Erie in150 YC. [1] Yes in the middle of the anti Catholic Genocide , my farther died by the hands of that miserable exterminator General Brown.. I lived my early life over there, and yeah it easy for you Asians (yeah thats what we call you to just make fun of us but you want to know something try living without clean water, or sanitation try living through months will you can never sleep because there is always a war in your neighborhood. God Damn the only fucking thing that made you more "advanced" "civilized" and out right "better" than us was your geographic location.

Watch your mother get battered and bruised by thugs and tell me how you like it..

You know while I one of the lucky ones that made it over across the ocean to Alchus and then Fusang, but I am so disgusted by the ways you guys live with your reality TV shows and consumerism as if your all that matters and I am really sick of people in this thread that treat the topic like its another war game.

Hell most of you you guys just dont know shit,

Yeah Eisin in Germany got screwed which basically screwed all of europe too..


OOC:
[1] Yue Calender named after the great Chinese Reformist that helped China transition from a monarchy to a modern day republic. Today we would be at 166 YC. Even though Yue was executed for his attempt to reform the government some of his reforms are still used today.

 

[Derekc2]

Man I am not sure if this the place for this but please left a pitiful barbarian let out.

I was born in Erie in150 YC. [1] Yes in the middle of the anti Catholic Genocide , my farther died by the hands of that miserable exterminator General Brown.. I lived my early life over there, and yeah it easy for you Asians to just make fun of us but you want to know something try living without clean water, or sanitation try living through months will you can never sleep because there is always a war in your neighborhood. God Damn the only fucking thing that made you more "advanced" "civilized" and out right "better" than us was your geographic location.

Watch your mother get battered and bruised by thugs and tell me how you like it..

You know while I one of the lucky ones that made it over across the ocean to Alchus and then Fusang, but I am so disgusted by the ways you guys live with your reality TV shows and consumerism as if your all that matters and I am really sick of people in this thread that treat the topic like its another war game.

Hell most of you you guys just dont know shit,

Yeah Eisin in Germany got screwed which basically screwed all of europe too..



[1] Yue Calender named after the great Chinese Reformist that helped China transition from a monarchy to a modern day republic. Today we would be at 166 YC.

"shudders" I can't imagine the horrors that it must be to live in western Europe. Or the majority of europe for that matter. The Balkans were really lucky to be under Eastern Roman control and I was really lucky to be born in the first world. God I don't know if I could survive that horror I hear just over the Imperial Northern Border.

Wait couldn't you just had moved to the Eastern Roman Empire? It's closer than Asia. It's also christian so it probibly would had been easier to get accustumed to.

 

[smjb]

Derekc2: Bless you for not having heard the term "O***mans". It's a patronizing slur for the Turkish (I'm not sure of the etymology), and I'm surprised it gets through AH's filters. Really, Petike's whole comment is over the line; can we please keep this a welcoming space for members of all races?

OOC: fixed that?

Meh. That tirade was downright friendly compared to some of the things I hear on other sites I visit. I spend so much time dealing with Christophobes, racists, and sexists that I wonder why I even bother sometimes...

 

[freethinker]

"shudders" I can't imagine the horrors that it must be to live in western Europe. Or the majority of europe for that matter. The Balkans were really lucky to be under Eastern Roman control and I was really lucky to be born in the first world. God I don't know if I could survive that horror I hear just over the Imperial Northern Border.

Wait couldn't you just had moved to the Eastern Roman Empire? It's closer than Asia. It's also christian so it probibly would had been easier to get accustumed to.

Well Erie is on the other side of Europe after we were not just right over the border from Constantinople infact the New World is just a little farther away.

Moving through all of Europe would have been a death march and quite frankly me and my mother didnt want to see any more third world (we coulnt afford a plane)

My Mother got lucky when she got a job around Dublin for a low level trans sea company usually my mother's crew was assigned for Albion (what you call Firanja) but we were assigned to a much larger ship that took us to the cgubese colonies. We had a difficult time adapting to a much different culture that was breathtakingly secular. . Here the Immigration Policies are happily friendly to Europeans.

It has been very hard to change to this new culture but it is much better than Erie. I am luck enough that the government will pay for me to get a higher education, so my mother will live in a much better apartment than where we are now..