DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

(Ignoring all other posts to answer the OP)

I'm currently taking History of European Civilization III at the Golden Gate Academy (San Francisco) and this question recently got me thinking as a matter of fact. So much so that I began discussing the topic with my professor.
Frankly, we're surprised that the IR did not happen in Europe; despite its appearance today. For one, Europe had all the easily accessible resources required for the revolution in places such as England, Lorraine, and Silesia. Two, though Christian Europe is only comprised of Iberia, France, Germany (Hamburg to Rome), Naples, the Commonwealth (Poland and Sweden to the Urals), and Denmark-Norway -- point being not so many different countries -- there are many, many ethnic groups scattered across the continent. Had the Hapsburg Dynasty not won the 60 years war in the 17th century, perhaps (1) the Holy Roman Empire would have fragmented and (2) the pacification of Europe would not have been successful. This would have led to more conflict, greater cultural diffusion and thus more progress. Furthermore the Catholic Church would not have been powerful enough to instill such restrictive laws on the Christian populace of Europe.
Three, the failure of the last crusade to liberate Magyaristan, or Hungary as it was once called was both a missed opportunity for a turning point in Perso-Arab hegemony/Christian retrogression.

---

Though you bring up a new topic to consider supplementary to why Europe wasn't the first to experience the IR: what would the world look like had Europe experienced the IR.

Let's go back to my earlier scenario where the Hapsburgs lost the 60 Years War. For the sake of reasoning, have the war end in the 50s instead of the 70s due to a divergence in the 20s/ early 30s where the Commonwealth goes under a secular revolution due to the newly acquired protestant territories of Sweden and the Orthodox territory of Russia. Have the result be France getting involved sooner rather than later and butterfly the Commonwealth dog-piling on. This would surely lead to the collapse of Austria and Spain as well as the entire Catholic Church for that matter (we need to give Europe as many ways as possible to push forward in order to contemplate how the world would look with an industrial Europe; even if they may seem far fetched).
Fast forward about a hundred years. The Holy Roman Empire is Hindered (TTL Balkanized... India fragmented), Spain is reduced to Galicia, Castille, and Aragon, Italy remains fragmented, the Commonwealth (with its new territories and learned tactics) has made strides passed the Urals, and Europe is under a new reformed leadership in the west and secular leadership in the east.
Lets have the IR start in (now) Polish Silesia through the use of simple steam power as what happened in Persian Mazandaran and quickly spread its way west to Lorraine and modern day Northwest Germany and east to the riches of western Siberia. That will snowball Christian Europe of the early 19th century into a society as advanced as OTL's Orient (TTL's term for the Middle East, while East Asia is known as [toponym of whatever the Arabs called the Pacific before Magellan's time] TTL -- did a a lot of research on the subject and found nothing). This doesn't mean that they would be ahead of the Arabs nor Persians, but at least on par.
So now that we have the back-story established, we can speculate on what the world would look like by the 1900s. The real question is one of imperialism. Would they colonize and conquer like the Muslims or simply build up their economy like the Asians? I definitely believe the former. Unlike Asia, Europe cannot sustain populations of enormous magnitudes and thus would have to look abroad for markets for the industrial goods they produce.
Therefore, we are looking at an Age of Imperialism contested between the Muslims and Christians. East Africa will fall Muslim as OTL; however West Africa will probably go Christian (Mali is a toss up, as it may go independent like OTL). With this new competition, there may not be a sovereign native country in the northern New World (imagine New Jersey as the south, Michigan as the southwest, and Alberta as the northwest). In fact, the east coast of the entire New World could potentially be dominated by imperial Christians as opposed to the converted Mesoamericans and the Arabs due to geography. The south [Pacific] would definitely not be European, but I can imagine, even with butterflies, that the northwest New World would still be colonized by the [toponym for the Arab word for Pacific] powers.

So that's what the world would look like I'd imagine by the 1900s. Afterwards, who knows? Wow. This got me amped. I can't wait to discuss this with my professor. I'll let you all know what he has to say.

(Notes: PoD from OTL 1400s, no age of discovery. However, history plays out the same across the globe minus the Colombian exchange, etc. Even the 30 Years War plays out similarly around the same time despite being 200 years after my PoD.)

(Well, I typed way more than I expected to and learned a lot in doing so. I hope this post was appreciated. I had a grand time writing it.)
OOC: Dude, we already came up with A POD!!! It's an alternate makizert!!! Get with the program.
This I think is not canon.
 
OOC: Dude, we already came up with A POD!!! It's an alternate makizert!!! Get with the program.
This I think is not canon.

OOC: As a lurker, I know how DBWIs work. However, it provides many limitations on exploring the situation we seek to learn more about when we have to base an entire thread around the first poster's reaction and the snowball it creates.

I apologize if my post was as offensive to this forum's common law as posting a Sealion thread. All I wanted to do was to make public my own personal reaction to what I would imagine the world to look like should Europe experience the IR in a scenario where it never did.

I was just hoping I would get a better response to my first piece of historical fiction than a PSA calling me out on my unwelcomed originality. :(
 
OOC: As a lurker, I know how DBWIs work. However, it provides many limitations on exploring the situation we seek to learn more about when we have to base an entire thread around the first poster's reaction and the snowball it creates.

I apologize if my post was as offensive to this forum's common law as posting a Sealion thread. All I wanted to do was to make public my own personal reaction to what I would imagine the world to look like should Europe experience the IR in a scenario where it never did.

I was just hoping I would get a better response to my first piece of historical fiction than a PSA calling me out on my unwelcomed originality. :(
OOC: My problem more had to do with the fact it completly over ruled the previous canon. I always prefere consistuty to origianlity if the thing has gone for a while. If it was one of the first posts I would of had no problem with it how ever it wasn't. It was completly ignoring the well established POD of this DBWI world. I didn't mean to make you sad. If it was on a thread that had the same premise but wasn't in this world I would have no problem with it and treat it as canon but it wasn't. I also got the fealing that when something in a DBWI is established you can't change it exspecally when it's THIS established.

So I think that you should make an alternate post that fallow's the world's history we made so far.
 
IC: So anyone else talked with the europeans from that other world yet? THe one where they did industrialised?
 
OOC: I recall it also being established that the Carolingian Empire had collapsed; that would have occurred prior to Manzikert. While Manzikert could have a different outcome, I don't think that it has to be the definitive POD.
 
IC: So anyone else talked with the europeans from that other world yet? THe one where they did industrialised?

I'm still flabergasted that this is the thing you used your inter dimensional communication devise for, I mean I kind of would have proffered calling like major world leaders or scientists or something. No offense of course it just seems like there are better uses for this miraculous piece of technology.
 
I'm still flabergasted that this is the thing you used your inter dimensional communication devise for, I mean I kind of would have proffered calling like major world leaders or scientists or something. No offense of course it just seems like there are better uses for this miraculous piece of technology.
"shrugs" I wanted too see how the alternate AH.commers are like. Their seems to even be alternate US! For instance mr 444. who wrote the wonderfull timeline "A chance for Europe" which fallows my potential POD in this world has a timeline called "An age of miracles". The alternate me is a easternromaphile you has no greek that he knows of in him while I am one of the aristacrocy in the empire.

Besides so far I've only got it to work with talking with alternate AH.commers in shared worlds.
 
OOC: I recall it also being established that the Carolingian Empire had collapsed; that would have occurred prior to Manzikert. While Manzikert could have a different outcome, I don't think that it has to be the definitive POD.
OOC: But we know it's before the habsburgs and the crusades. Which in DoingMyThing the crusades and the habsburgs happened. I'm also pretty sure that the Eastern Roman Empire fell ITTL and so has granada which didn't happen in the proper TL.
 
"shrugs" I wanted too see how the alternate AH.commers are like. Their seems to even be alternate US! For instance mr 444. who wrote the wonderfull timeline "A chance for Europe" which fallows my potential POD in this world has a timeline called "An age of miracles". The alternate me is a easternromaphile you has no greek that he knows of in him while I am one of the aristacrocy in the empire.

Besides so far I've only got it to work with talking with alternate AH.commers in shared worlds.

Thats both highly confusing and likely to make my head explode. Also how do you know its the alternate version of you and not just some guy who has the same username but the alternate you didnt even get into AH.com because Greece is a shithole in that TL and Anatolia was overun by the turks?
 
OOC: But we know it's before the habsburgs and the crusades. Which in DoingMyThing the crusades and the habsburgs happened. I'm also pretty sure that the Eastern Roman Empire fell ITTL and so has granada which didn't happen in the proper TL.

OOC: The fall of the Carolingian Empire would be well before the Habsburgs and the Crusades (800 - 888). It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the Carolingian Empire collapsed (IIRC), which would make that an earlier, albeit potentially unrelated POD than Manzikert.
 
Thats both highly confusing and likely to make my head explode. Also how do you know its the alternate version of you and not just some guy who has the same username but the alternate you didnt even get into AH.com because Greece is a shithole in that TL and Anatolia was overun by the turks?
...It's something. I don't know what but I feel as if we are alternate selves. Yes I know, it's weird.

Beside's they have some greeks in their Universe board already.
 
OOC: The fall of the Carolingian Empire would be well before the Habsburgs and the Crusades (800 - 888). It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the Carolingian Empire collapsed (IIRC), which would make that an earlier, albeit potentially unrelated POD than Manzikert.
OOC: I honestly think it's a unrelated POD and Manzikert is the big one.
 
OOC: I honestly think it's a unrelated POD and Manzikert is the big one.

OOC: I'd imagine that the collapse of the Carolingian Empire would have fairly drastic consequences of its own - no Holy Roman Empire, certainly no centralized France anywhere near as early as it actually happened... you never have the competition of small German states.
 
To get back on topic and away from the magic cross dimensional exchange going on, the biggest problem for european modernization in my eyes is that there energy situation was problematic, mos sources of oil and coal where in divided war-torn regions where economic development never got to the point where mining it was sustainable, where unreachable due to limitations in teh or where controlled by groups who did industrialize using them (spanish coal and Romanian oil yadda yadda yadda). Perhaps if there was some way to ensure a stable state forms in the rhineland or either Bohemia or poland permanently ends the dispute over Silesia then you could get the beginnings of westernization to take place.
 
OOC: I'd imagine that the collapse of the Carolingian Empire would have fairly drastic consequences of its own - no Holy Roman Empire, certainly no centralized France anywhere near as early as it actually happened... you never have the competition of small German states.
OOC: I think it should be a mix of both. With the collapse of Carolingian empire balkanising Europe and making it a lot more warlike and unstable and Makizert (imune to butterflies) which makes sure the Eastern Roman Empire stays powerfull and thus their knollege wouldn't go to western europe and neither would the knollage of the crusades.
 
Last edited:
To get back on topic and away from the magic cross dimensional exchange going on, the biggest problem for european modernization in my eyes is that there energy situation was problematic, mos sources of oil and coal where in divided war-torn regions where economic development never got to the point where mining it was sustainable, where unreachable due to limitations in teh or where controlled by groups who did industrialize using them (spanish coal and Romanian oil yadda yadda yadda). Perhaps if there was some way to ensure a stable state forms in the rhineland or either Bohemia or poland permanently ends the dispute over Silesia then you could get the beginnings of westernization to take place.
I think you mean easternization unless you are one of the people from the alternate world.

Well I think that you are correct. As one of the posters reminded me of the Carolingian empire, if that survived Europe would be far more stable than OTL. It's balkanization as those people from the Alternate world call it (ironic sence in otl it's the only part of europe NOT to have that happen) made it nearly impossible for it to stabalized and our victory at Makizert was the finale death nail for an industrial Europe for at least a long, long time.

OOC: I think I've came up with a definate POD. It's a mix of the Carolingian empire failing and a eastern Roman Makizert victory. Yeah I know that logicly the butterflies would had stopped the situration for makizet to appear bu I'm going with it.
 
I think you mean easternization unless you are one of the people from the alternate world.

Well I think that you are correct. As one of the posters reminded me of the Carolingian empire, if that survived Europe would be far more stable than OTL. It's balkanization as those people from the Alternate world call it (ironic sence in otl it's the only part of europe NOT to have that happen) made it nearly impossible for it to stabalized and our victory at Makizert was the finale death nail for an industrial Europe for at least a long, long time.

OOC: I think I've came up with a definate POD. It's a mix of the Carolingian empire failing and a eastern Roman Makizert victory. Yeah I know that logicly the butterflies would had stopped the situration for makizet to appear bu I'm going with it.

You cant really keep the Carolingian together as a state though, the region they controlled was too big, too ethnically and geographically diverse and there administrative capacity is weak and disorganized, what you want is a far less bloody end than the their war of succession which broke the fragile stability that Charlemagne fostered in Europe and eventually shattered the empire into its tiny components, just cutting down the successors from the nine* that broke off to something like three or four will be a massive improvement for Europes prospects. I mean

* France (just the northern part), Aquitaine, Burgundy, Frisia, Bavaria, Saxony, Lombardy, Hungary, and Wendland, the northern Balkan and Spanish parts of the empire where annexed by their neighbors.
 
You cant really keep the Carolingian together as a state though, the region they controlled was too big, too ethnically and geographically diverse and there administrative capacity is weak and disorganized, what you want is a far less bloody end than the their war of succession which broke the fragile stability that Charlemagne fostered in Europe and eventually shattered the empire into its tiny components, just cutting down the successors from the nine* that broke off to something like three or four will be a massive improvement for Europes prospects. I mean

* France (just the northern part), Aquitaine, Burgundy, Frisia, Bavaria, Saxony, Lombardy, Hungary, and Wendland, the northern Balkan and Spanish parts of the empire where annexed by their neighbors.
We could have it go the way that it did in the alternate world with the big two being France (which inclused both France and Aquitaine) and the Holy Roman Empire (which included everything else minus Hungary and Wendland).
 
We could have it go the way that it did in the alternate world with the big two being France (which inclused both France and Aquitaine) and the Holy Roman Empire (which included everything else minus Hungary and Wendland).

Yes but that's boring since it actually happened somewhere, we gotta try to have little fun with this.
 
Top