OOC: We really need to map out how the world is now, maybe map out the history from there.
DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe
- Thread starter EternalCynic
- Start date
OOC: We really need to map out how the world is now, maybe map out the history from there.
OOC: There is a Turkish state somewhere as far as I know, probably in eastern Anatolia. Asturias was likely substantially smaller than that and was annexed by Al-Andalus in what seems to have been the relatively recent past following the death of it's King. Scotland was implied to be the regional power on Great Britain. The Isle of Wight is independent and a Singapore analogue. Someone mentioned an "illegal Irish occupation of Ulster" so marking Ulster as occupied or disputed may be necessary. There was an earlier post mentioning the Hanseatic League that seemed to me to imply it no longer existed, and there was a mention of Pomerania that seemed to imply it was independent. In my post I mentioned independent states in Catalonia and Galicia in the recent past, but that might have contradicted earlier posts and they may have later been annexed by Al-Andalus as Asturias was, as they were part of a short lived federation which collapsed following a brief war with Al-Andalus.
In my post I wrote of an Italy looking something like the attached file; brown is the state of Italy (Unquestionably the top dog on the peninsula), red is Naples, and yellow is Lazio-Umbria (More or less the Papal States in all but name). Italy also holds or held Corsica, which isn't shown on the map. I'm not sure if this contradicts earlier posts, but my reasoning for a divided Italy and independent Catalonia and Galicia was so that a previous mention of a United Latin Republic (Seemingly equivalent to the various short-lived Arab federations of OTL) which needed multiple states which were both Latin and republics.
EDIT: Also, there may be a Maghreb state. And this is more just my personal opinion, but I think the Caliphate should get Syria and Palestine rather than splitting it between Egypt and Romania.
OOC: Yeah Maghreb has been mentioned as a unitary state, I'm pretty sure it was turcic rather than turkish and in central asia, atleast thats what I remember. Romania (not Rhomanion, the other one) could be divided and in some way puppets of the Empire, Germany should probably be split into around 7 equally powerful kingdoms and dictatorships (kind of like the modern day Levant and Arabia) maybe Bavaria, Austria, Pomerania-Brandenburg, Hanover, The Rhineland can be devided a lot so as to stymie industrialization, Bohemia controlling Saxony but with a heavily fought over Silesia by Poland and Bohemia so that place is also difficult to industrialize. Switzerland shall be this scenarios Afghanistan, because that just fits.
OOC:
http://imgur.com/PrlhU
Adjusted with the following nations added: Maghreb, Turkey, Wallachia, Moldavia, Bavaria, expanded Bohemia, Pomerania, Saxony, Franconia, Wallonia, Lorraine, Swabia (Switzerland wouldn't exist in any form that makes sense to us in this timeline), Provence, and the Small Rhenish States. I also presume that Iceland is part of Denmark.
http://imgur.com/PrlhU
Adjusted with the following nations added: Maghreb, Turkey, Wallachia, Moldavia, Bavaria, expanded Bohemia, Pomerania, Saxony, Franconia, Wallonia, Lorraine, Swabia (Switzerland wouldn't exist in any form that makes sense to us in this timeline), Provence, and the Small Rhenish States. I also presume that Iceland is part of Denmark.
OOC:I thought Turkey was in Mesopotamia sence the turkish people where there for a bit before they entered Anatolia I assume sence the Sejluks had control over it.
OOC: When does the mod start? It would be fairly interesting to set it from the Ticky start date and to come up with the scenario for that (and it would mean no tech changes rather than that plus new events and nations and decisions). Really the biggest problem I forsee for this idea is just the massive scale of effort needed to make a scenario for that game. Course i've been meaning to learn how to mod that game for awhile and this project gives an excuse.
OOC: I'm starting it in "Christian Date" 1790, I will probably Hijri, so 1204 A.H.
Still OOC:
While Turkey could have Mesopotamia, the Caliphate could be considered to be the Selkuk Caliphate, with a separate Turkic state existing in Central Asia. I am presuming that the ERE owns the Holy Lands (Palestine), since losing them would have triggered the Crusades, and would have reversed the major events that caused this timeline to occur.
The biggest issue is balance - a civilized China is a massive powerhouse. However, there has been no real discussion as per China's history in this TL - for all we know it could have been fragmented in this period, or been hit by plagues, or both.
Still OOC:
While Turkey could have Mesopotamia, the Caliphate could be considered to be the Selkuk Caliphate, with a separate Turkic state existing in Central Asia. I am presuming that the ERE owns the Holy Lands (Palestine), since losing them would have triggered the Crusades, and would have reversed the major events that caused this timeline to occur.
The biggest issue is balance - a civilized China is a massive powerhouse. However, there has been no real discussion as per China's history in this TL - for all we know it could have been fragmented in this period, or been hit by plagues, or both.
OOC* Hay Æsir Do you have a base map for Germany like Italy I could play around with?
OOC: The Caliphate definitely has Mesopotamia, yeah, as Baghdad was mentioned.
OOC: IIRC China is presently split into at least two dynasties (One north and one south, presumably).
OOC: Here's an SVG map of Germany's districts and states, although it obviously doesn't cover anything outside Germany's present day OTL borders; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...eisfreie_Städte_in_Deutschland_2011-09-04.svg
OOC:
I've made a bit of progress. Perhaps we should branch Vicky2 modding to another thread, though?
IC:
Have you guys ever played Arabia Universalis? It's interesting what you can do in that game... I even unified Brittania once as Wessex. Seemed a bit odd, though, as I had Europe even colonizing the New World.
I've made a bit of progress. Perhaps we should branch Vicky2 modding to another thread, though?
IC:
Have you guys ever played Arabia Universalis? It's interesting what you can do in that game... I even unified Brittania once as Wessex. Seemed a bit odd, though, as I had Europe even colonizing the New World.
OOC: Seems like a good idea to me.
IC: Eh, played it for awhile but the spin off games are much better in my opinion. That game is just kind of too unfocussed, that and the map sucks. Fatty 1 & 2 (in universe Victoria 2, except named Fatima because I cant come up with any other well known Muslim women beyond Roxelana) are much more my thing.
IC: Honestly my favorite is Jihad Emirs. That game is awesome even if it doesn't have the Eastern Roman Empire in it.
OOC: Jihad Emirs is the ITTL version of Crusader Kings.
I agree; the Fatima games are quite good, and I'm pleased that they've put more emphasis on improving the Easternization process for uncivs like Poland and Multenia. One game, Bavaria, of all countries, civilized and went on a conquest spree... could you imagine that?
Have you tried Jihad Emirs II? They added the Eastern Roman Empire, and there's even an earlier scenario where you can try to survive as the Carolingian Empire! (OOC: CKII allowed you to play prior to Hastings. There is no equivalent event, so this is the best I can think of).
More on topic, though, I wonder what would have happened in Europe if Christianity had never taken hold at all? After all, my understanding is that most Europeans were polytheists. After all, although we didn't cover it in any detail, Rome prior to the Eastern Roman Empire seemed pretty advanced; would/could that trend have continued?
OOC: Is there a great war / ww2 analog in this timeline that would make sense for HOI?
Have you tried Jihad Emirs II? They added the Eastern Roman Empire, and there's even an earlier scenario where you can try to survive as the Carolingian Empire! (OOC: CKII allowed you to play prior to Hastings. There is no equivalent event, so this is the best I can think of).
More on topic, though, I wonder what would have happened in Europe if Christianity had never taken hold at all? After all, my understanding is that most Europeans were polytheists. After all, although we didn't cover it in any detail, Rome prior to the Eastern Roman Empire seemed pretty advanced; would/could that trend have continued?
OOC: Is there a great war / ww2 analog in this timeline that would make sense for HOI?
OOC: I made a thread part of the same universe however we are talking with AH.commers from OTL which means we can talk with OURSELVES!!!
Here's a link https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=256992
Here's a link https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=256992
(Ignoring all other posts to answer the OP)
I'm currently taking History of European Civilization III at the Golden Gate Academy (San Francisco) and this question recently got me thinking as a matter of fact. So much so that I began discussing the topic with my professor.
Frankly, we're surprised that the IR did not happen in Europe; despite its appearance today. For one, Europe had all the easily accessible resources required for the revolution in places such as England, Lorraine, and Silesia. Two, though Christian Europe is only comprised of Iberia, France, Germany (Hamburg to Rome), Naples, the Commonwealth (Poland and Sweden to the Urals), and Denmark-Norway -- point being not so many different countries -- there are many, many ethnic groups scattered across the continent. Had the Hapsburg Dynasty not won the 60 years war in the 17th century, perhaps (1) the Holy Roman Empire would have fragmented and (2) the pacification of Europe would not have been successful. This would have led to more conflict, greater cultural diffusion and thus more progress. Furthermore the Catholic Church would not have been powerful enough to instill such restrictive laws on the Christian populace of Europe.
Three, the failure of the last crusade to liberate Magyaristan, or Hungary as it was once called was both a missed opportunity for a turning point in Perso-Arab hegemony/Christian retrogression.
---
Though you bring up a new topic to consider supplementary to why Europe wasn't the first to experience the IR: what would the world look like had Europe experienced the IR.
Let's go back to my earlier scenario where the Hapsburgs lost the 60 Years War. For the sake of reasoning, have the war end in the 50s instead of the 70s due to a divergence in the 20s/ early 30s where the Commonwealth goes under a secular revolution due to the newly acquired protestant territories of Sweden and the Orthodox territory of Russia. Have the result be France getting involved sooner rather than later and butterfly the Commonwealth dog-piling on. This would surely lead to the collapse of Austria and Spain as well as the entire Catholic Church for that matter (we need to give Europe as many ways as possible to push forward in order to contemplate how the world would look with an industrial Europe; even if they may seem far fetched).
Fast forward about a hundred years. The Holy Roman Empire is Hindered (TTL Balkanized... India fragmented), Spain is reduced to Galicia, Castille, and Aragon, Italy remains fragmented, the Commonwealth (with its new territories and learned tactics) has made strides passed the Urals, and Europe is under a new reformed leadership in the west and secular leadership in the east.
Lets have the IR start in (now) Polish Silesia through the use of simple steam power as what happened in Persian Mazandaran and quickly spread its way west to Lorraine and modern day Northwest Germany and east to the riches of western Siberia. That will snowball Christian Europe of the early 19th century into a society as advanced as OTL's Orient (TTL's term for the Middle East, while East Asia is known as [toponym of whatever the Arabs called the Pacific before Magellan's time] TTL -- did a a lot of research on the subject and found nothing). This doesn't mean that they would be ahead of the Arabs nor Persians, but at least on par.
So now that we have the back-story established, we can speculate on what the world would look like by the 1900s. The real question is one of imperialism. Would they colonize and conquer like the Muslims or simply build up their economy like the Asians? I definitely believe the former. Unlike Asia, Europe cannot sustain populations of enormous magnitudes and thus would have to look abroad for markets for the industrial goods they produce.
Therefore, we are looking at an Age of Imperialism contested between the Muslims and Christians. East Africa will fall Muslim as OTL; however West Africa will probably go Christian (Mali is a toss up, as it may go independent like OTL). With this new competition, there may not be a sovereign native country in the northern New World (imagine New Jersey as the south, Michigan as the southwest, and Alberta as the northwest). In fact, the east coast of the entire New World could potentially be dominated by imperial Christians as opposed to the converted Mesoamericans and the Arabs due to geography. The south [Pacific] would definitely not be European, but I can imagine, even with butterflies, that the northwest New World would still be colonized by the [toponym for the Arab word for Pacific] powers.
So that's what the world would look like I'd imagine by the 1900s. Afterwards, who knows? Wow. This got me amped. I can't wait to discuss this with my professor. I'll let you all know what he has to say.
(Notes: PoD from OTL 1400s, no age of discovery. However, history plays out the same across the globe minus the Colombian exchange, etc. Even the 30 Years War plays out similarly around the same time despite being 200 years after my PoD.)
(Well, I typed way more than I expected to and learned a lot in doing so. I hope this post was appreciated. I had a grand time writing it.)
I'm currently taking History of European Civilization III at the Golden Gate Academy (San Francisco) and this question recently got me thinking as a matter of fact. So much so that I began discussing the topic with my professor.
Frankly, we're surprised that the IR did not happen in Europe; despite its appearance today. For one, Europe had all the easily accessible resources required for the revolution in places such as England, Lorraine, and Silesia. Two, though Christian Europe is only comprised of Iberia, France, Germany (Hamburg to Rome), Naples, the Commonwealth (Poland and Sweden to the Urals), and Denmark-Norway -- point being not so many different countries -- there are many, many ethnic groups scattered across the continent. Had the Hapsburg Dynasty not won the 60 years war in the 17th century, perhaps (1) the Holy Roman Empire would have fragmented and (2) the pacification of Europe would not have been successful. This would have led to more conflict, greater cultural diffusion and thus more progress. Furthermore the Catholic Church would not have been powerful enough to instill such restrictive laws on the Christian populace of Europe.
Three, the failure of the last crusade to liberate Magyaristan, or Hungary as it was once called was both a missed opportunity for a turning point in Perso-Arab hegemony/Christian retrogression.
---
Though you bring up a new topic to consider supplementary to why Europe wasn't the first to experience the IR: what would the world look like had Europe experienced the IR.
Let's go back to my earlier scenario where the Hapsburgs lost the 60 Years War. For the sake of reasoning, have the war end in the 50s instead of the 70s due to a divergence in the 20s/ early 30s where the Commonwealth goes under a secular revolution due to the newly acquired protestant territories of Sweden and the Orthodox territory of Russia. Have the result be France getting involved sooner rather than later and butterfly the Commonwealth dog-piling on. This would surely lead to the collapse of Austria and Spain as well as the entire Catholic Church for that matter (we need to give Europe as many ways as possible to push forward in order to contemplate how the world would look with an industrial Europe; even if they may seem far fetched).
Fast forward about a hundred years. The Holy Roman Empire is Hindered (TTL Balkanized... India fragmented), Spain is reduced to Galicia, Castille, and Aragon, Italy remains fragmented, the Commonwealth (with its new territories and learned tactics) has made strides passed the Urals, and Europe is under a new reformed leadership in the west and secular leadership in the east.
Lets have the IR start in (now) Polish Silesia through the use of simple steam power as what happened in Persian Mazandaran and quickly spread its way west to Lorraine and modern day Northwest Germany and east to the riches of western Siberia. That will snowball Christian Europe of the early 19th century into a society as advanced as OTL's Orient (TTL's term for the Middle East, while East Asia is known as [toponym of whatever the Arabs called the Pacific before Magellan's time] TTL -- did a a lot of research on the subject and found nothing). This doesn't mean that they would be ahead of the Arabs nor Persians, but at least on par.
So now that we have the back-story established, we can speculate on what the world would look like by the 1900s. The real question is one of imperialism. Would they colonize and conquer like the Muslims or simply build up their economy like the Asians? I definitely believe the former. Unlike Asia, Europe cannot sustain populations of enormous magnitudes and thus would have to look abroad for markets for the industrial goods they produce.
Therefore, we are looking at an Age of Imperialism contested between the Muslims and Christians. East Africa will fall Muslim as OTL; however West Africa will probably go Christian (Mali is a toss up, as it may go independent like OTL). With this new competition, there may not be a sovereign native country in the northern New World (imagine New Jersey as the south, Michigan as the southwest, and Alberta as the northwest). In fact, the east coast of the entire New World could potentially be dominated by imperial Christians as opposed to the converted Mesoamericans and the Arabs due to geography. The south [Pacific] would definitely not be European, but I can imagine, even with butterflies, that the northwest New World would still be colonized by the [toponym for the Arab word for Pacific] powers.
So that's what the world would look like I'd imagine by the 1900s. Afterwards, who knows? Wow. This got me amped. I can't wait to discuss this with my professor. I'll let you all know what he has to say.
(Notes: PoD from OTL 1400s, no age of discovery. However, history plays out the same across the globe minus the Colombian exchange, etc. Even the 30 Years War plays out similarly around the same time despite being 200 years after my PoD.)
(Well, I typed way more than I expected to and learned a lot in doing so. I hope this post was appreciated. I had a grand time writing it.)