DBWI: Hitler lives, negotiates anti-Polish alliance and trade agreement with USSR

Adolf Hitler, the National Socialist dictator of Germany from 1933 to 1938, when he was assassinated by Maurice Bavaud, is one of the most popular figures of alternate history speculation. Still greatly admired by many in Germany today for his successful remilitarization of the Rhineland and the Munich Agreement which forced Czechoslovakia to yield the Sudetenland, he is also greatly criticized for his brutal persecution of Jews and dissidents. Recently economist Adrian Tooze's controversial book A War Economy in Peacetime: Rearmament in Hitler's Germany has argued that he was actually preparing for a full-scale Second Great War against either the Anglo-French, or the Soviet Union, or both. The main obstacle, he argues, was that the German economy was heavily dependent on essential imports which a British blockade would have cut off, as happened in the Great War. What if Hitler had lived, and, following through on his warlike intentions, had attempted to negotiate an agreement with the Soviet Union to circumvent such a blockade? The two countries did share a common enemy in Poland, and a mutual dislike of the western capitalist powers.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Oh please. Despite his posturings and rethorics, Herr Hitler is actually a realist who knew that Germany is outmatched. His economic stimuluses are excellent remedy for the downtrodden German economy, and his miracle is still being thought as perfect example of guided capitalistic economy that works.

Of course, his works would be wasted if his successor isn't Herr Speer, who has brilliance to continue Hitlernomics at the right track.

Hitler is an soft hearted artist at heart, yes he's racist to Jews, but Americans are racists to Africans and British are racists to Irishmen. Every nation has their own punching bag minorities, before the declaration of human rights in1980s there is nothing we could do...
 
I would say that I can't see an ardent anti-communist like Hitler making deals with the Soviets... until you remember that he and the previous Weimar Republic readily lent technical assistance to them for resources like food and oil. I could arguably see a Danzig Agreement, where both Germany and the Soviets negotiate over lost territory, occuring as well, though since Poland was always close to France War would be more likely than for the Czechs. Speer mostly made the point moot with a series of binationally owned railroads and autobahns connecting the land underneath Poland in exchange for a bit more of Zalmozie.

And he was planning for a war while using the arms industry to revitalize the nation; I reckon it was eastward, but it would be coming based on how hot the German economy was getting due to overproduction.

Another good question would be if Hitler would have funded rocketry as much as Speer did? Speer did it because he liked the idea of fast long ranged missiles that could take the role of heavy bombers. It also led to the DLR, the oldest space program in existence, and the one that created such milestones as first satellite, first man in space, first pictures of Venus and Mercury, and in modern times, the first unmanned probe/rover to land on an asteroid (Vesta). Heck, they are also the second of only three nations to land on the moon.
 
It's a bit far fetched to speculate that Hitler would start a full scale war. Sounds a tad ASB. After all, he was in the trenches during the Great War and suffered greatly there. Like most Great War veterans, he didn't want to see another devastating global conflict. Besides, by reuniting all the Germans into one country, Hitler had over turned the damage from the Treaty of Versailles so there was no need for war.

Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch were more of a fantasy story with an alternative history future than serious political works. They're both quite unrealistic anyway. And I doubt anyone in real life would be stupid enough to try to invade France, Britain, the USSR and the USA at the same time - who on earth would start a ridiculous war that they had no hope of winning?
 
In such an ASB, I wonder if the Baathists would have been half as successful as they are today? The investment by later German leaders into the movement was essential as a bulwark against communism in the Middle East. Had Hitler gone for such a suicidal move, the USSR may have taken over the Middle East and do more damage to the Arabs than ever before.
 
People are focusing a lot on Hitler but what's Stalin's motivation in this? This was a period where through the efforts of Maxim Litvinov, Soviet foreign policy was drawing its neighbouring state into closer economic and military agreements such as the First Moscow Pact that established non-aggression treaties with the Baltic states, Poland and Romania in 1929 and the Second that established technical and material trade with France, who considered themselves rivals with Germany and close allies with Poland. I don't think the USSR would abandon their useful agreements with France (and Britain) for Germany.
 
Hi guys, some input from a NSDAP member and economics student here.

First off, you foreigners often ignore the great men behind the public figures.

The economic miracle wouldn't have been possible without Hjalmar Schacht and Fritz Todt.

They designed the financial and economic recovery of Germany.

Schachts later ideas and policies even led to Berlin becoming the biggest financial market in Europe.

Todt on the other hand was an excellent planer who set up the basis for the modern German infrastructure (Which is by far the best in the world).

Hitler was certainly planning for a war against the Polish since they were oppressing the Germans in the corridor and in Schlesien.

Speer (or rather Göring and Von Ribbentrp) luckily managed to resolve this in the second Polish-Soviet border crisis.

I wish you a nice day, Heil!
 
It's a bit far fetched to speculate that Hitler would start a full scale war. Sounds a tad ASB. After all, he was in the trenches during the Great War and suffered greatly there. Like most Great War veterans, he didn't want to see another devastating global conflict. Besides, by reuniting all the Germans into one country, Hitler had over turned the damage from the Treaty of Versailles so there was no need for war.

Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch were more of a fantasy story with an alternative history future than serious political works. They're both quite unrealistic anyway. And I doubt anyone in real life would be stupid enough to try to invade France, Britain, the USSR and the USA at the same time - who on earth would start a ridiculous war that they had no hope of winning?
He was a veteran, but he was not above fighting a war if it ensured Germany was redeemed and (preferably) on top. He was prepared to fight Poland and right the borders, and he was possibly planning on an eventual Soviet War or maybe a French intervention. We'll never really know though.

And Mein Kampf was probably mostly propaganda designed to inflame the Germans, I'll agree with that, but it and quite a few of Hitler's speeches against Communism to me paints a possible East War, maybe more for ideological reasons than for something as silly as land, but still a thing. The Germans technically won the last Eastern War after all.
People are focusing a lot on Hitler but what's Stalin's motivation in this? This was a period where through the efforts of Maxim Litvinov, Soviet foreign policy was drawing its neighbouring state into closer economic and military agreements such as the First Moscow Pact that established non-aggression treaties with the Baltic states, Poland and Romania in 1929 and the Second that established technical and material trade with France, who considered themselves rivals with Germany and close allies with Poland. I don't think the USSR would abandon their useful agreements with France (and Britain) for Germany.
Eh, Germany was a more useful trade partner for them during the 30s and 40s; both of them experienced great advances and shared knowledge in armor, making the two the best tank builders in the world. You're probably thinking of the early fifties administration of Molotov and the revived Entente Cordiale, who sought better deals with France when relations between Germany and the Soviets cooled over China and later on Iraq and Syria.
Hi guys, some input from a NSDAP member and economics student here.

First off, you foreigners often ignore the great men behind the public figures.

The economic miracle wouldn't have been possible without Hjalmar Schacht and Fritz Todt.

They designed the financial and economic recovery of Germany.

Schachts later ideas and policies even led to Berlin becoming the biggest financial market in Europe.

Todt on the other hand was an excellent planer who set up the basis for the modern German infrastructure (Which is by far the best in the world).

Hitler was certainly planning for a war against the Polish since they were oppressing the Germans in the corridor and in Schlesien.

Speer (or rather Göring and Von Ribbentrp) luckily managed to resolve this in the second Polish-Soviet border crisis.

I wish you a nice day, Heil!
Huh, forgot about the guy behind the Berlin School of Economics. And I didn't know that Todt was so important to infrastructure design either. How did he figure out the trick to leave both a corridor to a new Polish port and connect both Prussias anyway? I heard that it was the largest underground tunnel system until Peru designed an even bigger one in the 70s.
 

Deleted member 94680

How did he figure out the trick to leave both a corridor to a new Polish port and connect both Prussias anyway? I heard that it was the largest underground tunnel system until Peru designed an even bigger one in the 70s.

Have you ever been on the Extraterritorial Autobahn? It's quite the feat of engineering, amazing to think it was carved out in the 1940s! We go to the Free City all the time, great place to pick up some cheap cigarettes and duty free booze.

Oh and FYI, the Peruvian Tunnels were mainly constructed with the assistance of WVHA advisors and engineers. Caused quite the stir in the 70s when the contracts didn't go to American firms.
 
How long will trade with the Soviets last, though? Hitler wasn't just anti-Semitic, he was anti-Communist and saw the Slavs as inferior. While Russia is definitely a greater threat in a hypothetical war, if Hitler manages to win in a war with France (not unlikely, considering how outdated the French doctrines were due to their complacency having won the Great War), there's no way he'd just be happy with that. Sure Poland, to take back the former borders, but by that time he's whipped his populace into such a frenzy that they wouldn't accept such a massive communist and Slavic nation only growing more powerful.

Hitler was an artist who had a knack for economics (although like our friendly German explained he didn't single-ha deadly save Germany), but he wasn't a general. He was a veteran, but Great War experience in a potentially global conflict with bombers that have thousand mile ranges and tanks that could run circles around anything made before... Not good.


Also, we've not talked about Japan. If the Japanese still win in China and install their puppet government, will they still try for Vladivostok and Siberian resources? If Germant clearly states that they're partners with the Soviets, how will the Japanese react?

As a comment on that, it seems the Japanese have always been about a half-century behind the West in terms of actions. Their crazy imperialist wars against Korea and Manchuria and China belong in the 19th century with the Brits in Africa. Their economic model after the reformation of their constitution is more like post-Depression models.

And excuse any typos, I'm writing this on my VePhone.
 
Wouldn't it be more likely if the reverse would have happened and he instead turned the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact into a full anti-Soviet Alliance, he could maybe have managed Poland to agree with plebescites in Upper Silesia and Greater Poland with promises of Slovakoczech and Russian territory.
 

Deleted member 94680

We all know Speer was the architect of the eventual German hegemony, but have you guys ever read up on the other Alter Kampfers? They may not be familiar names but Hess, Himmler or Heydrich all seem pretty badass guys. It's amazing to think Speer rose to the top.
 
We all know Speer was the architect of the eventual German hegemony, but have you guys ever read up on the other Alter Kampfers? They may not be familiar names but Hess, Himmler or Heydrich all seem pretty badass guys. It's amazing to think Speer rose to the top.

They may be unknown outside of Germany but for historically interested Germans they are a must know. Especially Himmler who became the executive of Hitlers personal security and the head of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt before he was assassinated.

My own great grandfather was one of the alte Kämpfer and participated in the 1923 revolution attempt.

If Hitler manages to strike a deal with the Soviets, we might see a Germany with the eastern borders of 1914 today.

The Soviet Union might have survived till today with German industrial and technical support.

Statins purges, industrialization programs and the cultural revolution killed and antagonist millions of Russians and destabilize led the country for decades.


German industrial support might have made all those policies unnecessary.
 
How long will trade with the Soviets last, though? Hitler wasn't just anti-Semitic, he was anti-Communist and saw the Slavs as inferior. While Russia is definitely a greater threat in a hypothetical war, if Hitler manages to win in a war with France (not unlikely, considering how outdated the French doctrines were due to their complacency having won the Great War), there's no way he'd just be happy with that. Sure Poland, to take back the former borders, but by that time he's whipped his populace into such a frenzy that they wouldn't accept such a massive communist and Slavic nation only growing more powerful.

Hitler was an artist who had a knack for economics (although like our friendly German explained he didn't single-ha deadly save Germany), but he wasn't a general. He was a veteran, but Great War experience in a potentially global conflict with bombers that have thousand mile ranges and tanks that could run circles around anything made before... Not good.


Also, we've not talked about Japan. If the Japanese still win in China and install their puppet government, will they still try for Vladivostok and Siberian resources? If Germant clearly states that they're partners with the Soviets, how will the Japanese react?

As a comment on that, it seems the Japanese have always been about a half-century behind the West in terms of actions. Their crazy imperialist wars against Korea and Manchuria and China belong in the 19th century with the Brits in Africa. Their economic model after the reformation of their constitution is more like post-Depression models.

And excuse any typos, I'm writing this on my VePhone.
The Japanese won because Wang Jingwei did well in toppling warlord support of Chiang Kai Shek, who at the time made a mistake in handling Yan Xishan and other people like him when he sought support to smash the Communists. The Japanese picked the best time possible to set up another "Incident" and played their card well. They'd have probably kept China in their orbit for quite a while if they didn't decide to try and seize Vladivostok due to the army's hubris.

Japan always did underestimate the Russians since 1905, and their brutal smacking basically cost them China and their little Manchurian project. It didn't matter that the Soviet leadership wasn't that hot; they just threw so many men that it didn't matter.
They may be unknown outside of Germany but for historically interested Germans they are a must know. Especially Himmler who became the executive of Hitlers personal security and the head of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt before he was assassinated.

My own great grandfather was one of the alte Kämpfer and participated in the 1923 revolution attempt.

If Hitler manages to strike a deal with the Soviets, we might see a Germany with the eastern borders of 1914 today.

The Soviet Union might have survived till today with German industrial and technical support.

Statins purges, industrialization programs and the cultural revolution killed and antagonist millions of Russians and destabilize led the country for decades.


German industrial support might have made all those policies unnecessary.
Eh, the Soviets were a doomed breed by the 1960s mainly because Molotov and later Brezhnev were not capable of revitalizing the Soviet system or regaining the trust of the people again. No wonder the Trudovik revolution of 1971, started by depressed tank workers in Kharkov and joined by a lot of troops managed to sweep them out; a more liberal pick might have prevented it. I dunno who though, since Stalin killed a lot of his better successors by the time he croaked in '51.

Still, the Russian Federal Republic has done well since those days; I hear they've been investing their natural gas reserves quite well.
 
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