DBWI- History 312 Overview of the Third Reich

I Understand the revision to 52.9 Million people is tragic, but this is all a major digression: This lecture topic is about the Third Reich. (Note: The ENTIRE POPULATION of Indonesia in 1956-58 could not have been much more than 53.1 million.) The Death of some 210,000 people is something that we tried to stop as much as we could.

Besides, the UDS condemned the entire affair and ultimately expelled Indonesia--and we were mortified that a bunch of Nazi Pukes might seek to seize it for political gain. In the end, Geography solved the issue.

As for the Third Reich, something needs to be said about the "Dirty War" in the Ural Mountains against the remnants of the Red Army and desperate partisans...

OOC:Actually the 1950 population was 80.1 million people. The idea of the amount of people killed would be similar to the Khmer Rogue of Cambodia which killed a similar proportion of the populace from 1975-1978. Also the reason for these analogies is to show that America has sometimes been complicit in aiding and abetting some very violent regimes since 1945...

IC: Well, with regards to Argentina, you seem to forget about the 534,000 "Disappeared" who were often found in mass graves after the 2001. The point is that the vitriolic statements against Germany are neither constructive nor helpful to the situation at hand.

Also consider our tenuous relation with the Democratic Republic of Russia under President Alexander Solzhetnitsyn since 1968. The Russians will certainly not talk about their own pogroms against Jewish dissidents starting in 1981. Also the Red Army factions were also responsible for the bombing of the 1980 Berlin Olympics which killed 6 members of the U.S. Olympic team. Both are acts that this UDS member has neither acknowledged or admitted to...
 
Look, the world Political situation has forced the UDS to make desperate moves to protect itself. I don't disagree with this--the choices historically were poor ones, ones that we felt we had to do to protect our own security. This is why the Bin Laden Clique was installed in Central Asia, and why the UDS financed Islamist radicals to fight for control against the Axis-Backed Pan-Arabian Movement. That the Bin Laden government hijacked four fully loaded passenger airplanes and destroyed the Millennial Reich Towers in Munich is part of the bitter legacy that began because of fear.

Yes, the UDS did wrong. Supporting Chiang Kai-Shek despite his considerable corruption, the Bin Laden Clique in Arabia, Laventi Beria's Novosibirisk Soviet--these were bad things, but war itself is essentially evil. But what choice do we have? The Second to Last Government of the United Kingdom: The Neville Chamberlain Government attempted to satisfy Germany's needs, but for his efforts he was humilated and ultimately forced into a war that Germany started.

If it weren't for nuclear weapons I'm pretty sure that this war would have been fought to the bitter end. But we didn't ask for this fight--despite what your own history might say, Ignancy Mosiciki bears no blame for starting world war 2. Denmark didn't request German Protection and the Soviets certainly resisted efforts to "liberate them" from their communist oppressors. We even contend that the Mengele Thesis--of the proven inferiority of non-Aryans through hideous testing--is a scientific hoax.

The UDS did wrong. But this is a very good case of calling the kettle black. The fact that we had crummy friends and few real choices around the world does nothing to justify the ultraviolent behavior and insidious behavior towards the people you claim are worse than nothing.
 
Look, the world Political situation has forced the UDS to make desperate moves to protect itself. I don't disagree with this--the choices historically were poor ones, ones that we felt we had to do to protect our own security. This is why the Bin Laden Clique was installed in Central Asia, and why the UDS financed Islamist radicals to fight for control against the Axis-Backed Pan-Arabian Movement. That the Bin Laden government hijacked four fully loaded passenger airplanes and destroyed the Millennial Reich Towers in Munich is part of the bitter legacy that began because of fear.

Yes, the UDS did wrong. Supporting Chiang Kai-Shek despite his considerable corruption, the Bin Laden Clique in Arabia, Laventi Beria's Novosibirisk Soviet--these were bad things, but war itself is essentially evil. But what choice do we have? The Second to Last Government of the United Kingdom: The Neville Chamberlain Government attempted to satisfy Germany's needs, but for his efforts he was humilated and ultimately forced into a war that Germany started.

The UDS did wrong. But this is a very good case of calling the kettle black. The fact that we had crummy friends and few real choices around the world does nothing to justify the ultraviolent behavior and insidious behavior towards the people you claim are worse than nothing.

I am not disputing the evils of fascism, but in the current atmosphere of "real politique" and detente, despite the collapse of the Third Reich, we have to realize that no country has a monopoly on either good or evil. The fact of the matter is that Greater Prussia and Italy are emerging as booming economic markets. They cuurently are our third and fourth largest trading partners, respectively since 2001. Also consider that with the "Baby Boom" since 1976, close to 60% of the population is under 35 years old, and was born after many of the "crimes against humanity" that you describe. Are we supposed to convict the populace of those two countries, because of the crimes of a fallen regime, or because of actions taken by their parents or grandparents?

Just consider that people in Greater Prussia, most youth under 21 years of age, are addicted to re-runs of Baywatch and listen to Yo! MTV Raps. In Italy, the biggest blockbuster of all time was the premiere of Titanic starring Leonardo di Caprio...
 
I am not disputing the evils of fascism, but in the current atmosphere of "real politique" and detente, despite the collapse of the Third Reich, we have to realize that no country has a monopoly on either good or evil. The fact of the matter is that Greater Prussia and Italy are emerging as booming economic markets. They cuurently are our third and fourth largest trading partners, respectively since 2001. Also consider that with the "Baby Boom" since 1976, close to 60% of the population is under 35 years old, and was born after many of the "crimes against humanity" that you describe. Are we supposed to convict the populace of those two countries, because of the crimes of a fallen regime, or because of actions taken by their parents or grandparents?

Just consider that people in Greater Prussia, most youth under 21 years of age, are addicted to re-runs of Baywatch and listen to Yo! MTV Raps. In Italy, the biggest blockbuster of all time was the premiere of Titanic starring Leonardo di Caprio...

So funny that.

You recognize that the German National-Social State would do as you suggest and punish the children for the faults of their parents, right? And to some degree, perpetual wrongs need to be righted. Sorry, but the successor states in Europe (and the ones you aren't mentioning, like Ostland and New Tirol are little more than warlords) still to a great degree abuse and mistreat the untermenschen to this day.

See, now you've got a still somewhat dysfunctional Europe indoctrinated with four decades of racial hatred. Greater Prussia, Austria-Bohemia and the Scandinavian Republic might have done very well, but they still operate on a fundamentally parasitic principle of exploiting the inferior races. The Racial Laws of 1938, 1946 and 1961 are still on the books of those countries, and while governments might no longer actively try to exterminate the subhumans, the oppressive situation continues.

I understand the value of capitalism, that perhaps the world can move past the dark days of the 1940s to 1970s. But I really think that the Successor States (and I include Italy with this too) could do far more than they have done. Perhaps ignoring human rights violations is better than deliberately causing them, but its still a very serious problem.

In the end, I think the German National-Socialist State was a great crime against the world. How many good people died over nonsensical issues of race? What could the resources of the world have been put to instead of the Cold War and large scale partisan activities? How many people still suffer poverty and hunger in Central Asia and in the ghettoes of Ostland, New Tirol, and The Marzenland because of arbitrary racial discrimination today?

Those German Kids of 1974, they are moving into the positions of power today. I certainly hope that they are better than those who came before.
 
So funny that.

You recognize that the German National-Social State would do as you suggest and punish the children for the faults of their parents, right? And to some degree, perpetual wrongs need to be righted. Sorry, but the successor states in Europe (and the ones you aren't mentioning, like Ostland and New Tirol are little more than warlords) still to a great degree abuse and mistreat the untermenschen to this day.

See, now you've got a still somewhat dysfunctional Europe indoctrinated with four decades of racial hatred. Greater Prussia, Austria-Bohemia and the Scandinavian Republic might have done very well, but they still operate on a fundamentally parasitic principle of exploiting the inferior races. The Racial Laws of 1938, 1946 and 1961 are still on the books of those countries, and while governments might no longer actively try to exterminate the subhumans, the oppressive situation continues.

I understand the value of capitalism, that perhaps the world can move past the dark days of the 1940s to 1970s. But I really think that the Successor States (and I include Italy with this too) could do far more than they have done. Perhaps ignoring human rights violations is better than deliberately causing them, but its still a very serious problem.

In the end, I think the German National-Socialist State was a great crime against the world. How many good people died over nonsensical issues of race? What could the resources of the world have been put to instead of the Cold War and large scale partisan activities? How many people still suffer poverty and hunger in Central Asia and in the ghettoes of Ostland, New Tirol, and The Marzenland because of arbitrary racial discrimination today?

Those German Kids of 1974, they are moving into the positions of power today. I certainly hope that they are better than those who came before.
The problem with pointing out the racial policies of the former German Reich is that it also fails to recognize the short-somings of the United States and many of its UDS allies. Just remember that it was illegal to marry a person outside a person's race in many states until 1968. I don't think I have to point out the police beating death in Birmingham, Alabama of Jesse Jackson in 1977. Also, it wasn't until 1996, that the United States apologized for the internment of Japanese-Americans during the Japanese-American War, 1941-1943. It wasn't until 1998, that the United States Department of Energy admitted to experiments on soldiers until 1973. As for anti-Semitism, there were the Sitka Riots of 1991, when they finally applied for statehood.

As for the issues of modern Prussia, Osttland, Bavaria, et al., while they have their racial short-comings, they are slowly changing. Just consider that were even able to allow "Makin' History" concerts for Michael Jackson in 2003. Imagine the culture shock that many people faced when they saw the radical African-American artist, with his wife Brooke Shields, performing "Up Against the Wall" and "Black or White"....
 
The problem with pointing out the racial policies of the former German Reich is that it also fails to recognize the short-somings of the United States and many of its UDS allies. Just remember that it was illegal to marry a person outside a person's race in many states until 1968. I don't think I have to point out the police beating death in Birmingham, Alabama of Jesse Jackson in 1977. Also, it wasn't until 1996, that the United States apologized for the internment of Japanese-Americans during the Japanese-American War, 1941-1943. It wasn't until 1998, that the United States Department of Energy admitted to experiments on soldiers until 1973. As for anti-Semitism, there were the Sitka Riots of 1991, when they finally applied for statehood.

As for the issues of modern Prussia, Osttland, Bavaria, et al., while they have their racial short-comings, they are slowly changing. Just consider that were even able to allow "Makin' History" concerts for Michael Jackson in 2003. Imagine the culture shock that many people faced when they saw the radical African-American artist, with his wife Brooke Shields, performing "Up Against the Wall" and "Black or White"....

A shame, what our once-great country has come to; the stage for mongrels, freaks and Judeo-American Capitalism. Is this the Germany of Friedrich der Grösse, of Bismarck and Adolf Hitler? I am the first to acknowledge that the National Socialist system held many flaws, but is this new thing really better for our people? We lost control over Ostland and are still fighting a war there; old pensioners and war veterans are forced to work double shifts since social security was cut down and inflation ravaged unchecked. Der NS-Staat at least took care of its people; in this American crash-capitalism, on the other hand, annihilates the weak of the Volk. It's the strong and ruthless that survive; the Judeo-American bankers and the mob. Need I remind anyone of the Hermann Göring Works, or Transcaucasian Petrol, both of which were sold practically for a load of schnapps? Money that would have benefited our people are now running right into the foreign elite's pockets.
 
A shame, what our once-great country has come to; the stage for mongrels, freaks and Judeo-American Capitalism. Is this the Germany of Friedrich der Grösse, of Bismarck and Adolf Hitler? I am the first to acknowledge that the National Socialist system held many flaws, but is this new thing really better for our people? We lost control over Ostland and are still fighting a war there; old pensioners and war veterans are forced to work double shifts since social security was cut down and inflation ravaged unchecked. Der NS-Staat at least took care of its people; in this American crash-capitalism, on the other hand, annihilates the weak of the Volk. It's the strong and ruthless that survive; the Judeo-American bankers and the mob. Need I remind anyone of the Hermann Göring Works, or Transcaucasian Petrol, both of which were sold practically for a load of schnapps? Money that would have benefited our people are now running right into the foreign elite's pockets.
Great!!!:rolleyes: Just what we need, more members of the Old Guard... This coming from a country wherein the parents can force a divorce of a couple for "marrying beneath themselves", even in 2008. One question that always bothers me, if Aryan DNA is so superior, why is it that one drop of "mongrel blood" can instantly weaken the bloodline? Notice that, Old Guard members never talk about the vaunted "physical superiority" of the Aryan lineage after Muhammad Ali's exhibition match in 1976, nicknamed the "Berlin Blitz", wherein Ali beat German heavyweight boxer Hans Schmidt in 3 rounds (see When We Were Kings).

As for the issue of the economics of the situation, please consider that Prussia's economic woes are based on policies aimed at controlled economies. Volkswagon and BMW haven't made a new car model since 1968, yet the waiting list for a car for most people is 6-8 months. Deutsche Telekom, Deutsche Bank, and Westdeutsche Landesbank all had to be sold because of the massive inefficiency since 1974. As such, this would point to the German leadership as the reason behind their situation, not some foreign boogeyman....
 
Great!!!:rolleyes: Just what we need, more members of the Old Guard... This coming from a country wherein the parents can force a divorce of a couple for "marrying beneath themselves", even in 2008. One question that always bothers me, if Aryan DNA is so superior, why is it that one drop of "mongrel blood" can instantly weaken the bloodline? Notice that, Old Guard members never talk about the vaunted "physical superiority" of the Aryan lineage after Muhammad Ali's exhibition match in 1976, nicknamed the "Berlin Blitz", wherein Ali beat German heavyweight boxer Hans Schmidt in 3 rounds (see When We Were Kings).

As for the issue of the economics of the situation, please consider that Prussia's economic woes are based on policies aimed at controlled economies. Volkswagon and BMW haven't made a new car model since 1968, yet the waiting list for a car for most people is 6-8 months. Deutsche Telekom, Deutsche Bank, and Westdeutsche Landesbank all had to be sold because of the massive inefficiency since 1974. As such, this would point to the German leadership as the reason behind their situation, not some foreign boogeyman....

OOC: I'm posting as a disgruntled worker, taking inspiration from the climate in OTL Russia.

IC: Don't you bring up that damn match today! Everyone know it was a sham; the Americans smeared their champion's gloves with contact poision. On top of that, he was on steroids. You really think the Americans would fight fair? Or imagine that they could win if they did?

In the old Reich, there was room for the old, the unemployed, the veterans and the infirm. The Empire's subjects, Aryans and Untermensch alike, solidarically contributed to the betterment of the Volk. There was decent health care, decent education for the young... Nowadays there's no security. The market capitalism and the Bonzen eat up everything, and the Volk is starving. To say nothing of the Untermensch, who are suffering the worst of all from this climate of economic exploitation and exclusion.
 
You still use the term Untermensch – as if these people are anything but human. You want to know why they’re starving? It’s because until the Restructuring years, and informally until today, it’s practically impossible to get a good job in the former Reich unless you have a Deutschblut certificate.

Anyway, though, one thing you can’t fault the Germans for is the piety of their clergy…I mean, look at the Holy Father - surely you can’t go wrong with Papa Ratzi… remember the part of the Christmas message calling for the end to anti-Untermensch discrimination? Notice how the younger Germans were among the loudest supporters of it? The old Party machine cannot last – demographics simply are working against it.
 

~The Doctor~

And Greater Prussia still beat us to Mars. That's humiliating.

:rolleyes: The Prussian "Marshot" is a total joke. Three Aryans (yeah, right) in a rickety space capsule with a 25% chance of returning home and a 100% chance of developing cancers and tumors on the trip. Crewmember Hortz died seven months after returning to Earth.

If anything, the Marshot only proved how far behind the Prussians were. When NASA went to the Moon, they stayed, and now we have a colony of 5,000 people there. What did the Prussians do on Mars? Plant a flag, grab some rocks, and leave. For Christ's sake, Australian probes have brought back more scientific data from the Red Planet!

Another UDS country that people seem to forget is Indonesia, which we backed during their 1976 invasion of the Portuguese colony of East Timor(despite the warnings of Australia, Malaysia and the Philippines). We also backed them in the 1956-1958 Purges of government, which conservative estimates place at at least 53.1 million people. That is certainly more than has been reported by the Germans....

I'm just glad, for the Indonesians, that the UDS didn't block Australia's involvement in the 1988 Revolution. A lot of Americans were eating humble pie when the true scale of the atrocities the government committed against its own people. If only we had got there sooner...:mad:
 
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OOC: I'm posting as a disgruntled worker, taking inspiration from the climate in OTL Russia.

IC: Don't you bring up that damn match today! Everyone know it was a sham; the Americans smeared their champion's gloves with contact poision. On top of that, he was on steroids. You really think the Americans would fight fair? Or imagine that they could win if they did?

Right!!! :rolleyes: And I suppose that the 1968 Tommie Smith's and John Carlos's victory in the 100m dash at the Bucharest Summer Olympics was based on a massive injection of horse steroids. Personally, it cracks me up how every African-American sports victory since 1936 with Jesse Owens, is explained as a "American Zionist conspiracy", but the 1972 steroid testing of the Reich Women's Swim Team was a "necessary adjustment"...

In the old Reich, there was room for the old, the unemployed, the veterans and the infirm. The Empire's subjects, Aryans and Untermensch alike, solidarically contributed to the betterment of the Volk. There was decent health care, decent education for the young... Nowadays there's no security. The market capitalism and the Bonzen eat up everything, and the Volk is starving. To say nothing of the Untermensch, who are suffering the worst of all from this climate of economic exploitation and exclusion.

Excuse me while I vommit!... I don't seem to recall the health care system of the Reich being able to deal with a simple heat wave in 1968, when close to 456 people were hospitalized and 12 killed, because of simple heat exhaustion. As for education for the youth, that didn't seem to apply to Brownshirts during the Cultural Revolution (1962-1972), who often sent "counter-revolutionary" professors to labor camps if they sang "Deutschland Uber Alles" in the wrong key....
 
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