DBWI: Henry Clay loses in 1844?

Well the Empire of Texas might be partially or entirely part of the US. The Mormon Territories might not be a radiated wasteland and the Republic of Cascadia might not be eyeing the Rockies north of the Ogden Reservoir. The Three Californias might not be answering to Austin and Washington might be a permanent member on the Security Council instead of a 'lasting temporary one.
 
Earliest change is, as M27 says, Texas gets annexed - which is gonna piss off the Mexicans. For all the US's advantages, it'd be Mexico who'd have proper skin in the game and are going to keep coming in the inevitable war, a war that even w/ Manifest Destiny I'd see a lot of Americans getting pissed off with, their sons dying for (to them) empty desert. Losing a colonial war is going to be a huge shock to the system (so no 1860s war with Spain to take Cuba for another slavery compromise, for a start), worse than the Mahdist War was for us.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Earliest change is, as M27 says, Texas gets annexed - which is gonna piss off the Mexicans. For all the US's advantages, it'd be Mexico who'd have proper skin in the game and are going to keep coming in the inevitable war, a war that even w/ Manifest Destiny I'd see a lot of Americans getting pissed off with, their sons dying for (to them) empty desert. Losing a colonial war is going to be a huge shock to the system (so no 1860s war with Spain to take Cuba for another slavery compromise, for a start), worse than the Mahdist War was for us.
How bad was the Mahdist War for us?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well the Empire of Texas might be partially or entirely part of the US. The Mormon Territories might not be a radiated wasteland and the Republic of Cascadia might not be eyeing the Rockies north of the Ogden Reservoir. The Three Californias might not be answering to Austin and Washington might be a permanent member on the Security Council instead of a 'lasting temporary one.
What exactly happened to the Mormon Territories in this TL?

Also, are you suggesting that the U.S. eventually annexes California if Polk wins in 1844?

Finally, as for the Security Council, you mean the North American Security Council, correct?
 
What if Henry Clay would have lost New York and thus the U.S. Presidency back in 1844?

I dunno, but I do have a hard time seeing Texas not being annexed early.....or California not staying independent, for that matter. Mainly because IOTL, Clay had no desire to annex Texas unless it became necessary(well, we did anyway not too long after the Confederates invaded in 1863 IOTL, but that was under Lincoln. And mind, this was only a year after the Cuban conflict broke out-King Carlos sympathized with the CSA mainly because he came to really dislike Lincoln), while he was genuinely pissed at the Monterey Massacre on the day after Christmas, 1844, which ended up being one of the Casi Belli for the Mexican-American War starting the year after-so California ended up being a state in 1850, while it took until 1869 for Texas.

OOC: yeah, I wanted to try to come up with something plausible, while not straying too far from other posters' ideas as a compromise. Feel free to take it as you wish, though, since it's your thread.
 
Nothing happened to the Mormon territories because the Mormons are still in Nauvoo.

After getting elected Henry Clay sent in troops to assist the Mormons in Illinois and Iowa. The church's headquarters is still in Nauvoo.
 
-Clay winning in 1844 prevents Texas annexation
-Mormons still move West in large numbers in 1846/1847 to Mexican Utah
-Clay's soft stance on Oregon leads to British securing forts on Southern side of the Columbia River; eventually US settles for territory east of Snake and Columbia Rivers from their confluence
-Texas and Mexico reach peace accord via British mediation in 1851 (offered OTL ~1841)
-California secedes under Pio Pico or comparable administrator in 1852, gold discovered less than a year later, leads to Mexi-Cali War. California wins taking Nevada
-Mexico offers OTL Utah and Colorado autonomy and special status as holding them would be very difficult, de facto obtained within a decade
-California buys territory south of the Snake River in British claim through Rogue River drainage area
-Texas takes advantage of weakened Mexico to invade and take OTL New Mexico and Arizona to the Gila and Colorado Rivers
-Gold fever in California causes degeneration into 3-wat civil war for years, eventually Texas will control all three
-With the rise of oil over 70% of the wealth of Texas is controlled by the Fifteen Families. By 1914 they replace the government with a new 'merit-based' system based on property ownership and wealth. Unofficially the Republic of Texas looks a lot more like an Empire and the name sticks.
 
How bad was the Mahdist War for us?

Well, fine for you, obviously :p We managed the triple hit of losing Khartoum and Gordon right as the relief teams reached him, failing in Suakin, and then the attempt to hold Equatoria* by force. The war forced a lot of useful reforms on us to stop it happening again but what a waste of life. America was far luckier during the 19th century, and Texas as well. Texas was a little too lucky.


* OOC: Losing Gordon in an even worse way and being unable to get any revenge leads to an overreaction when the public get romantic over besieged Equatoria.
 
Last edited:
Top