DBWI: Hellenic League disbanded after Greco-Persian War

Dolan

Banned
The Greco-Persian Wars were a series of conflicts between Persian Empire and The Greek City-States that formed the background of the formation of what is recognizable as the first long-lasting confederation between the Greek City-States, that later on, become de facto inspiration for many modern confederations, and many said as the first precursor of what we called as a modern concept of nation-state.

The Greek City-States before the formation of Hellenic League (Koinon Hellenon) was a collection of extremely diverse City-States, with various systems of local government and tradition. From the Militaristic Sparta that ruled over Helot slaves, Democratic Athens who excel in Naval Trade and Warfare, Thebes, Pherae, to the newly liberated Ionian City-States who previously ruled by Persian Overlords. Their shared experience and camaraderie during the War compels them to join their forces, keeping and adapting benefits of strong practices while discarding the weak or abhorrent traditions in order to facilitate unity between City-States as a whole.

It was said that this was started as a compromise between Sparta, Athens, and other city-states. Sparta has the best, most disciplined Land Army, but they are supported by enslaved helots that caused moral objections from other city-states as they were fellow Greeks. After a heated discussion, The Spartan King Leonidas agreed to freed their Helot slaves (slavery of fellow Greeks being forbidden from that point on) and providing Spartan training to other city-states in return of having the other city-states supporting the League Army (with Spartan Army as their professional core). The Athenians agreed to provide the similarly professional backbone for the Navy in return of having the other city-states supporting the League Navy. The Thessalians agreed to provide the Cavalry Arm and their fast, horseback expertise in return of similar gains, and other city-states quickly followed suit, supporting the league with their strength (mostly food and money, initially), while the others will help to cover their weakness.

The power divisions between member city-states were determined by a system of 'electoral college', in which each member are allowed to sent certain numbers of representative to the Ceremonial Capital, Delphi, according to their relative contributions to the League. The representatives then decided the matter of war, laws, and economy by a somewhat democratic voting process, and their formations being enshrined in the Constitution.

The combination of Spartan Land Army, Thessalian Cavalry, and Athenian Navy proved to be a very potent combination against the Persian Empire's grasp in Greek-dominated Asia Minor. The Persians are thus finally driven off out of Asia Minor, with Trebizond and Issues being made into Fortress cities dedicated to guarding the Greeks against further Easterling incursions. The League also expanded diplomatically to the Western Greek City-States, with Megale Hellas and Syrakousai, even across the ocean with Kyrenia and even Massalia being peacefully incorporated as they did see the benefits of joining forces and having a common, free trade area between them.

The First Hellenic League actually endured, and provide long-lasting peace between the Hellenes for more than 150 years, before civil war broke due to the Ambition of the now infamous Alexander of Macedon. But even then, the Macedonian usurpation was finally defeated and the League reformed into the Second Hellenic League, which returning the Democratic process and making important fail-safes against the other possibilities of Tyrants trying to usurp the force from within.

...

Let's say that in this scenario, the cooperation between Greek City-States happened in a less interlinked way, to the point that the alternate Hellenic League either never formed or being a temporary coalition that ends up being disbanded after Persians was driven off from Greek Lands.

What will happen next? Could the Greeks actually survive without forming the League in the first place?
 
I don't see how some arrangement isn't made - division, when the Persians are literally on the other side of the Aegeon, would have been suicide.
 

Dolan

Banned
I don't see how some arrangement isn't made - division, when the Persians are literally on the other side of the Aegeon, would have been suicide.
Let's say that the other city-states decides that the problem of Spartan Helots could be postponed until Persia is out (since it's not like they themselves didn't own Greek slaves, mind you), and said League formed to be merely temporary solution to the Persian problem (aka disbanded after whatever they think being acceptable result). What would happen afterward?

And yeah, the liberation of Helot slaves, and the member city-states agreeing to free their own Greek slaves in return was often used as the Historic Milestone of The Abolition of Slavery, very ironically (all while conveniently forgetting that Hellenic League still enslave the conquered non-Greek Anatolians, Lydians, and Persians, and not to mention all the 'Barbaroi' slaves used on the North and Western Frontiers). Sure, modern-day historian often said that the measure was a very pragmatic one, that is to provide a large body of practically expendable light troops (psiloi and gymnoi) for the campaign, as well as to bolster the numbers of Greek colonists in Asia Minor (them being promised citizenship if surviving the campaign was indeed a win-win solution). It was also ironically being thought as major concessions TO Sparta, considering that they could focus all their citizens to Military Training, with money and logistics coming from everyone else, instead of having most of them preoccupied with supervising the Helots farming and crafting back in Lakedaemonia, which is said to be Leonidas' plan all along.
 
That Alexander guy you mentioned. I think ITTL we would be talking a lot more about him.

I think I once read a story about him conquering the entire Persian Empire and even venturing into India after his Dad had brought Greece under his heels. But that must have been in ASB. No way these at best half-civilized Macedons could have pulled that off.
 

Dolan

Banned
No way these at best half-civilized Macedons could have pulled that off.
Keep in mind that Macedon's usurpation was more or less made possible by them being early adopter of Epameinondas' "Phalanx Reform", where the Theban general introduced the Phalangite, line infantryman that, while not as heavily armored as the traditional Hoplite, carried the long, two-handed pikes that could easily outreach enemy formation in front of them. While heavier Hoplite could beat them up close, the Phalangitai provided even better defense against enemy cavalry and massed infantry assaults often used by Persia.

Without the grinding war against Persia in the east, there will be no Phalanx Reform, and Macedonians would never being tasked to provide the new pikes (their cornel woods being particularly excellent). Alexander's father Philip would thus never develop Macedonian infantry corps (being traditionally cavalry-heavy army), and thus Alexander would not have the core part of his army all along.

Sure, Macedonian Cavalry is one of the best, but their traditional infantry is just unarmored tribal spearmen and maybe some Thracian Peltasts if they could stretch it. They could still win field battles but they will lose hard when whoever the Greek City-State they fight against took up defensive position and just let Macedonian Cavalry tried charging Hoplites head-on. After the cavalry routed, or forced to dismount, the ensuing infantry battle would definitely favor heavily to the Greeks instead of Macedonians.
 
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