DBWI: Has Anybody Read the New Turturus Book?

Wolfpaw

Banned
Has anybody read the new book by Turturus, Upon This Rock? I know that some (though certainly not all :p) on this board refer to Turturus as the "Master of Alternate History" but this new one by him is positively ASB.

In it, he has Christianity becoming the dominant religion of the Empire! No offense to any Christians out there, but really? Christianity's such a tiny, tiny religion. It's hard to find very many of them outside of the Levant or major urban centers (and, of course, Malta). His POD is that Caesar Augustus fails in his conquest of Germania. Does anybody else see how this could possibly lead to Christianity supplanting Solism as the Empire's dominant faith?

I mean, maybe Judaism (Jews are around 10% of the Imperial population, after all), but it's never really been big on seeking converts. Islam and Perunism are potential possibilities, too, but I doubt there'd still be an Empire at all if they somehow managed to become dominant. But the whole Christianity thing seems so out of left field.

I think I heard something about the Pontifex Maximus condemning the book (which will probably only bolster sales in Greece, eastern Illyria, Brittania, and northern and eastern Germania) and I'm sure some of the nuttier right-wingers in the the Senate and the Assembley may gripe about it, but what do you expect with politicians nowadays? I hope at least the Emperor stays out of it; Sol Invictus knows we don't need yet another Imperial scandal.:rolleyes:

*Sigh* Why can't Turturus go back to writing decent things? I mean, I loved the Northern Victory Series, and Rule Brittania was great, too (someone really ought to do a WI the Armada hadn't reconquered Brittania from the rebels). Hopefully he'll get bored of flying with the ASBs after a while. We can only hope.
 
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Wasn't he the same guy who wrote the Worldwar series? You know, the one where Earth invaded and conquered a world inhabited by sentient lizards?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Turturus is just an example how low literature will sink when you ease censorship. I am shocked over the amount of Persian, Arabic, Khazar and Alan literature allowed to manipulate the minds of our good citizens, but we should at least be able to limit the crazies within our empire from publishing their ridiculous stories.
 
I do not think we should insult the man. If we accept the Geese effect, small changes could result in enormous variations. It could result in an unidentifiable history. I could see a loss at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest leading to a lack of interest in Germania. Maybe

You might need to have everyone develop brain damage though.

I personally would have had the point of divergence occur to a slightly more reasonable turn of events, but that is simply my opinion. Did Germania host large numbers of Christians? That might explain it.
 
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As you know, I hold no brief for Turturus (dear heavens, just how many times is he going to recycle the Punic and Indian wars?), but I think you are being a bit harsh.

All religions start out small, and most stay that way. Why some religions succeed is a knotty and contingent problem, and is an endless source of argument. Individuals count for a lot: if it had not been for the Sage of Antioch, Solism probably would have remained a mystery cult rather than becoming a popular and eventually state religion. And the fact of Solist success would argue that there was a considerable popular apetite for a religion more "user-friendly" than old style Jupiter and co. If there had been no Sage, some other religion could have easily filled the "ecological space" that clearly existed. Isis-worship, or perhaps Neo-Platonism. (Wouldn't have liked to live in that world: probably be forced to hand over your balls to the state and only get them back for reproductive purposes. [1])

Chrisitianity wouldn't be my first choice as a plausible alternate, but it's hardly as absurd as you say. Note the development of Buddhism in Asia, or Soterism in Interior Africa. Both of these faiths essentially started from one guy, and what Christian writing from the early centuries survive indicate Jesus was a preacher of some force: it is a pity that the record is so fragmentary and full of later interpositions.

As for this arising from a failure to conquer Germania - well, remember, every time the Capitoline Geese flap their wings, it storms in Serica. (And I wish they would stop: relations with Serica are touchy as it is nowadays. :D )

Now, his having Islam still come into existence after six centuries of Christianity, that's silly. Islam is a mix of Zoroastran, Jewish, and local traditions...if you throw Christianity as a dominant religion into the mix, how on earth can you not expect it to be goosed away?


[1] Come to think of it, it seems he mixed in Neo-Platonic hatred of the flesh with Christianity to make his alt-religion creepier: modern-day Christians aren't vicious sexists, as far as I know.
 
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Turturus is just an example how low literature will sink when you ease censorship. I am shocked over the amount of Persian, Arabic, Khazar and Alan literature allowed to manipulate the minds of our good citizens, but we should at least be able to limit the crazies within our empire from publishing their ridiculous stories.

You're the one who's allways complaining about how they always destroy the Empire in AH stories, aren't you? :D

Bruce
 
It's the old ridiculous cliche of moving the Capital to Byzantium that bugs me. As if the Empire could be run properly by a bunch of effeminate Greeks!
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
And Oy, what he did with the poor Arabs. What a horrible thing to do with one of the hardest-drinking and most fun-loving peoples I know...

Yeah, at least Arabs know which Qu'ranic laws to ignore now and then ;). Not like those Persians. Did you hear about the speakeasies that got burned down in Tehran? The Ayatollah said his bully-boys had nothing to do with it. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Nova Eboracum to sell you... :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, at least Arabs know which Qu'ranic laws to ignore now and then ;). Not like those Persians. Did you hear about the speakeasies that got burned down in Tehran? The Ayatollah said his bully-boys had nothing to do with it. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Nova Eboracum to sell you... :rolleyes:

(OOC: with a POD back in the early 1st century, we still get the Quran and its anti-alcohol message in the 7th? Or the term Ayatollah, a word of mixed Persian-Arabic origin (http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t236/e0088 ) which doesn't seem to date earlier than the 14th century OTL? Holy timeline convergence, Batman. I was attempting to imply that Islam never existed in this TL.)
 
It's the old ridiculous cliche of moving the Capital to Byzantium that bugs me. As if the Empire could be run properly by a bunch of effeminate Greeks!

I dare you to go to Sparta and shout that in the main square... :D

(It's not the effeminacy, it's that when you get more than five greeks together you automatically get six opinions and two city-states. What was that old joke - in Avernus the cooks are Gauls, the policemen are Mexica,...etc., and it's all organized by the Greeks?)

Bruce
 
I dare you to go to Sparta and shout that in the main square... :D

(It's not the effeminacy, it's that when you get more than five greeks together you automatically get six opinions and two city-states. What was that old joke - in Avernus the cooks are Gauls, the policemen are Mexica,...etc., and it's all organized by the Greeks?)

Bruce

Spartans are alright. Theres a few of them in my Cohort and they're good lads. I suppose you have a point though. I guess we should be grateful they never got their act together. Made things easier on us. Speaking of which, have you read "The Pyhrric Empire" by Stirlingoi? I'm not sure if its AH or Greek nationalist propaganda tbh.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
(OOC: with a POD back in the early 1st century, we still get the Quran and its anti-alcohol message in the 7th? Or the term Ayatollah, a word of mixed Persian-Arabic origin (http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t236/e0088 ) which doesn't seem to date earlier than the 14th century OTL? Holy timeline convergence, Batman. I was attempting to imply that Islam never existed in this TL.)

(OOC: Oh, I know, I know. It's just that, in the first post, I mentioned Islam as existing. So I did the best with what I could after your post. Sorry for any mix-up!:p)
 
(OOC: Oh, I know, I know. It's just that, in the first post, I mentioned Islam as existing. So I did the best with what I could after your post. Sorry for any mix-up!:p)

Oops. I somehow missed that... :(

Fixed it.

Bruce
 
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Spartans are alright. Theres a few of them in my Cohort and they're good lads. I suppose you have a point though. I guess we should be grateful they never got their act together. Made things easier on us. Speaking of which, have you read "The Pyhrric Empire" by Stirlingoi? I'm not sure if its AH or Greek nationalist propaganda tbh.

Stirlingoi is as solid an Empire man as anyone: I'm sure it's just an outgrowth of his Alexander the Great fetish, which he shares with half the military-AH writers between Nova Lusitania and Serica.

Bruce
 

Faraday Cage

Isn't he the guy who wrote the book about rebels going back in time and giving the Liberators bracchium ignia?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Has anybody read Livys history of Rome?Livys history seems to be 95 legend and 5 fact. Does anybody here know anything about the real history of Rome, not the legend or BS the Romans made up to justify their own actions throughout?

How dare you insult the glory and history of the Roman Empire!

(OOC: You're new here, but this is a "Double Blind What If" [DBWI] where we pretend like the subject we are discussing is real.;))

I mean really, attacking one of Rome's greatest poets like that! You sound like one of those Hesperidii or Vinlanders, always trying to bash Roman history. (They won their independence centuries ago; you'd think they'd get over their Romanophobia by now! I mean, all those emirates in Amazonia and the Ba'id Maghreb aren't nearly as tough on the Caliphate!)

(OOC: Welcome to the board, by the way!:D)
 
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