DBWI: Harold had lost to William 1066

OOC: I think the best word for an ATL Parliament might be Witenagemot.

OOC: That was the name of Pre-Norman invasions version of the Parliament, but it was a much more informal body. But give it a few centuries of development and evolution...
OOC: Witenagemot wouldn't be used for the same reason the French don't use consilium but conseil. As I mentioned earlier a reasonable linguistic development would be Wittenmoot.
 
Maybe Hablament ("The Speaking")? Or Parliarie ("Talking organization")?

"Parliament" was used in a couple of older and now obscure counter-factual stories that I recall-I do believe one of them may be on the WorldNet!(Will have to see if I can find it, though)

Would you think that a Norman rule would be more or less absolute than IOTL? Also, what are some of the interesting words Hautemont came up with?

I don't remember too many of them offhand, but one that's always stuck out to me was "beef", derived from Old French boef-and also mutton, derived from moton(here in the V.C., there are several savory dishes made with sheep's meat that we call Moutton; originally primarily eaten by the folk of the Apelachi Hills in the interior, but started becoming a more formal dish about 60 years ago.). As well as "pork", from porc(itself from the Latin porcus.(what we call Porque in the V.C.). Alright, I'll admit, I was hungry when I saw this post, and I've always been a gastrophile, so.....yeah.

OOC: I thought gastrophile would be a neat ATL term for someone who's a foodie.....like the real me. ;)
 
"Parliament" was used in a couple of older and now obscure counter-factual stories that I recall-I do believe one of them may be on the WorldNet!(Will have to see if I can find it, though)



I don't remember too many of them offhand, but one that's always stuck out to me was "beef", derived from Old French boef-and also mutton, derived from moton(here in the V.C., there are several savory dishes made with sheep's meat that we call Moutton; originally primarily eaten by the folk of the Apelachi Hills in the interior, but started becoming a more formal dish about 60 years ago.). As well as "pork", from porc(itself from the Latin porcus.(what we call Porque in the V.C.). Alright, I'll admit, I was hungry when I saw this post, and I've always been a gastrophile, so.....yeah.

OOC: I thought gastrophile would be a neat ATL term for someone who's a foodie.....like the real me. ;)

That’s...shall we say...interesting
 
as well as the 167 year long Great Unification between England, Denmark, and certain of the German states
Semantic quibble, but technically the true unification lasted only about half a century; when people talk about "the 167 year period", they're including the marriage union and personal union which paved the way for the period when Angland and Denmark were all under the same "single crown" (as opposed to being separate crowns worn by the same man), as well as the period after when John the Peaceful agreed to return a level of local control to his holdings in the British Isles that paved the way for his sons to split the empire upon his death.

The fact that Norwall had successfully cast off Anglish dominance shortly before the personal union that started this period and that there were wars of Sowall during it does complicate the narrative of a cohesive 167 year period even more, as does the expansion northward that saw Galloway and Strathclyde brought into the crown's domain. And to this day, even though Angland, Wales, and Alba are technically a single country, we still squabble with each other at the pub over where the borders of Angland actually are (and before anyone says it, no Angland is not the same as the British Union, and we're not being pedantic when we correctly you tourists about it).
 
Semantic quibble, but technically the true unification lasted only about half a century; when people talk about "the 167 year period", they're including the marriage union and personal union which paved the way for the period when Angland and Denmark were all under the same "single crown" (as opposed to being separate crowns worn by the same man), as well as the period after when John the Peaceful agreed to return a level of local control to his holdings in the British Isles that paved the way for his sons to split the empire upon his death.

The fact that Norwall had successfully cast off Anglish dominance shortly before the personal union that started this period and that there were wars of Sowall during it does complicate the narrative of a cohesive 167 year period even more, as does the expansion northward that saw Galloway and Strathclyde brought into the crown's domain. And to this day, even though Angland, Wales, and Alba are technically a single country, we still squabble with each other at the pub over where the borders of Angland actually are (and before anyone says it, no Angland is not the same as the British Union, and we're not being pedantic when we correctly you tourists about it).

Ah, that's quite a good point you make there.
 
The personal union of Denmark, England, and the seven German states would not have happened.

It should be noted that William had plenty of advantages, but for whatever reason could not penetrate the shield wall Harold told them to maintain in. The larger army was stuck smacking a metaphorical brick. That was a smart idea, and not perusing the Normans (who had knights) after winning was also a good idea.
 
The personal union of Denmark, England, and the seven German states would not have happened.

It should be noted that William had plenty of advantages, but for whatever reason could not penetrate the shield wall Harold told them to maintain in. The larger army was stuck smacking a metaphorical brick. That was a smart idea, and not perusing the Normans (who had knights) after winning was also a good idea.

Well, Harold was helped by the fact that William, like an idiot, burned his own boats before the attack. After his assault shattered, they had no real place to retreat to, and so Harold was able to pick off the stragglers at his leisure (and arrest those who's ransom was worth having. Though, I can't recall: did he refuse to ransom William, or did William die before being apprehended?). There was no need to give immediate chase (although, maybe that would be an interesting POD for this timeline: The Norman weren't really fleeing, and it was a reigned route. Harold's troops were famously exhausted after turning back to major invasions in a matter of weeks - so its conceivable that they might have taken the bait and been drawn into a trap. Then you just need to get rid of Harold; maybe have him fall off a horse and get trampled or something similar).
 
Though, I can't recall: did he refuse to ransom William, or did William die before being apprehended?).

Neither. This is actually a little known piece of history, but actually William managed to escape to Wales and his 6x great grandson was the famed William the Conqueror, who united Scotland, Ireland, and Norwall and Sowall.
 
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Neither. This is actually a little known piece of history, but actually William managed to escape to Wales and his 6x great grandson was the famed William the Conqueror, who united Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and Norwall and Sowall.
Eh, the genealogy of William's mother Mary of Sowall has not been proven and most historians have her ancestor Gwilym the Red as a son of Alan the Red one of the few knights of William of Normandy to remain in England (Cornwall to be exact).

OOC: OTL Wales = TTL Norwall (~Gwynedd) + Sowall (~Deheubarth).
 
Eh, the genealogy of William's mother Mary of Sowall has not been proven and most historians have her ancestor Gwilym the Red as a son of Alan the Red one of the few knights of William of Normandy to remain in England (Cornwall to be exact).

OOC: OTL Wales = TTL Norwall (~Gwynedd) + Sowall (~Deheubarth).

Yeah, but recent genetic studies have found genetic matches between the current Scot-Irish MacWilliams dynasty and the current grand-duke of Normandy
 
Eh, the genealogy of William's mother Mary of Sowall has not been proven and most historians have her ancestor Gwilym the Red as a son of Alan the Red one of the few knights of William of Normandy to remain in England (Cornwall to be exact).

OOC: OTL Wales = TTL Norwall (~Gwynedd) + Sowall (~Deheubarth).

OOC: edited. Thanks!
 
Yeah, but recent genetic studies have found genetic matches between the current Scot-Irish MacWilliams dynasty and the current grand-duke of Normandy
But said Duke is descended from the Dukes of Brittany in the male line, the same dynasty Alan was from. And since the genetics study was on the Y chromosome that supports William the Red being Breton not Norman.
 
But said Duke is descended from the Dukes of Brittany in the male line, the same dynasty Alan was from. And since the genetics study was on the Y chromosome that supports William the Red being Breton not Norman.

How would that show what you claimed it did? You argued that it was William’s mom that was the descendant of William the Red. He would get his Y chromosome from his father, Sir John.
 
How would that show what you claimed it did? You argued that it was William’s mom that was the descendant of William the Red. He would get his Y chromosome from his father, Sir John.
OOC oops! Also means the McWilliams are from a different William too!

Hmmm, that's right. The Breton connection is rather strange then. Unless I've missed a noble cadet somewhere.
 
OOC oops! Also means the McWilliams are from a different William too!

Hmmm, that's right. The Breton connection is rather strange then. Unless I've missed a noble cadet somewhere.

William of Normandy had two children after his flee to Wales: a daughter, Mary, and a son, Charles. However, Charles’s son John was kidnapped and never found. Sir John’s great great grandfather was the adopted son of two peasants who found him crawling around outside their hut. Is it possible John is Sir John’s great great grandfather? Mary’s line is where William the Conqueror came from, so this would mean his parents were distant cousins
 
OOC: Well, Gaelic ITTL would’ve been influenced by Norman French soooo

OOC: well, no more than in OTL when they held the Eastern half of the island ;). But, in OTL, the name William was introduced to Ireland by the Norman's and took the form of Liam. Probably be the same in the ATL of course :)
 
OOC: It would be MacLiam. Liam is the Gaelic form of William :)

OOC: Well, Gaelic ITTL would’ve been influenced by Norman French soooo

OOC: well, no more than in OTL when they held the Eastern half of the island ;). But, in OTL, the name William was introduced to Ireland by the Norman's and took the form of Liam. Probably be the same in the ATL of course :)

OOC: it’s just an American thing
OOC. The original Irish Gaelic form was Uilliam (cf Scots Gaelic Uilleam).
It was probably shortened due to influence of Uí the feminine form of Ua/Ó "descendant of".
 
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