Kaiser Wilhelm
Banned
As the title says, what if William had defeated King Harold in his attempted invasion of England in 1066? Would this butterfly German-Danish-English Unification?
Dude, that’s centuries down the line, it’s like asking “Would Romano’s IV being defeated by the Sejuk Turks have prevented the 14th Century Balkan Wars?” I mean yeah, technically you could say “most likely”, but it makes far more sense to focus on the short to medium term effects in the latter 11th and 12th centuries first.Would this butterfly German-Danish-English Unification?
It's hard to imagine William holding on to England for very long, if for no other reason than the fact that between the Anglo-Saxon nobility that he'd have to fight to the death to replace after killing Harold (since they'd have no reason to stay loyal to HIM), there's the little fact that as the Duke of Normandy he's oath bound to the French throne through his French lands... Yet also a sovereign monarch in his own right.
There's no way he could maintain his hold on both England and Normandy, the Kings of France WILL find a reason to throw him and his family out of Normandy, while the native nobility of England will resist William at every turn.
Pressed in this vice the reign of William I wouldn't last very long. I doubt his sons would be able to inherit much of anything by the end of it.
What if he found a way to replace the native English nobility with other Normans? We know that the Normans during this period had a larger population and an expansionistic drive; he certainly could have found enough willing to subjects to become Earls and other, lower, positions. This is going to piss off the locals, of course, but their rebellions could end up giving him justification to seize and redistribute more and more lands.
Actually, I just had an interesting idea: could England end up acting as pressure valve of sorts for the Normans? Perhaps governing of England would have siphoned off enough of the Norman adventurers so that the Norman's don't go through the expansionistic phase that they did in OTL. This could mean no Norman Sicily and Aragon, or prevent the annexation of Brittany, or the Netherlands. Without the Normans in the North, maybe we could see a centralized Kingdom of France develop, rather than the decentralized wreck it became in OTL until the Age of Nationalism in the 19th century. (Okay, the King of France is still going to have to deal with other internal regional powers, like Aquitaine and Provence - but removing the threat of Normandy might make a huge difference).
Might the example of an organized neighbor (or that neighbor being strong enough to organize them) combined with not having to constantly fight on the Pyrenees allowed them to get through their fraternal squabbles before their Muslim counter-parts in the south were brought back together under the Caliphate of Cordoba / Badajoz Emaiate? (We all know the Emir and his military REALLY ran the place)
Oh, that's a good question, and I hadn't even thought about that! So this timeline might not see the division of Iberia between the Christian states of the North and Islamic Granada in the south and interior. Interesting.
Of course, I wonder if I might not have turned out even worse for the Christians in this ATL. Without the strong Norman presence in Aragon and their connections througout the region, it's possible that Aragon could get overwhelmed once Corboda gets itself back in order. The twelfth century was a rough one for Aragon in OTL as it was, and without the reinforcements from Sicily and Rhodes as we as the Norman fighting spirit ... That may have gone very badly indeed.
I also wonder how the Crusades go in this TL. The Rhomani still hate to admit it to this day, but without the West drawing the attention of the Turks away in Outremer, I wonder if the Empire would have been able to recover it's Anatolian territory as quickly as it did in OTL.
But, anyway I think we may be getting a bit further afield from the OP than is good, at the moment. Sorry about that!
Dude, that’s centuries down the line, it’s like asking “Would Romano’s IV being defeated by the Sejuk Turks have prevented the 14th Century Balkan Wars?” I mean yeah, technically you could say “most likely”, but it makes far more sense to focus on the short to medium term effects in the latter 11th and 12th centuries first.
In the case of our OP, I would venture the answer to that is “nothing good”; this was a time, after all, when the Kingdom of England started to enjoy some very much needed stability after the wars with Great Heathen Army and the Danes, to say nothing of the work of tying together the unified kingdom, and of course conflict with the Normans.
I'd be sort of interested in seeing what effects this would have on the English language. The Saxons have a long history of taking lone words from other cultures into their own vocabulary, like they did with Latin and Danish. However the Norman French is pretty far off from the Germanic based English. Depending on how entrenched the Norman rule became it'd be interesting to see if they borrowed more than a handful of words or if there'd just be a split between the French speaking ruling class and the English speaking peasant class. Such a split would likely see a lot more revolts from the peasants and mid-level nobility.
Hm, maybe. IIRC, the King of Denmark had toyed with the idea of invading to prop up Edgar (the son of Edward the Exile that Harold had usurped) and install him as a puppet;* maybe if he sees the Normans trying to set up a new regime in England, he figures the Saxons will greet him as liberators and decides to go in.Do you think that William conquering England would lead to yet another Danish invasion?
I mean that'd be pretty hard in the 11th century. They didn't have public school or anything. Educating a population that had very little free time and likely zero literacy would be a massive undertaking and likely not go over well. It'd be if anything easier to just learn English, but I don't see the notoriously prideful Normans considering that.I don’t know if I agree. I mean, wouldn’t the elite force the peasants to use Norman in order to eliminate that as a possibility?
Hm, maybe. IIRC, the King of Denmark had toyed with the idea of invading to prop up Edgar (the son of Edward the Exile that Harold had usurped) and install him as a puppet;* maybe if he sees the Normans trying to set up a new regime in England, he figures the Saxons will greet him as liberators and decides to go in.
OOC: *this is OTL as well, incidentally
I mean that'd be pretty hard in the 11th century. They didn't have public school or anything. Educating a population that had very little free time and likely zero literacy would be a massive undertaking and likely not go over well. It'd be if anything easier to just learn English, but I don't see the notoriously prideful Normans considering that.
Well, English underwent a lot of simplification following the Danish arrival so I suspect this is increased by the Normans. Especially if English loses its administrative status.I'd be sort of interested in seeing what effects this would have on the English language. The Saxons have a long history of taking lone words from other cultures into their own vocabulary, like they did with Latin and Danish. However the Norman French is pretty far off from the Germanic based English. Depending on how entrenched the Norman rule became it'd be interesting to see if they borrowed more than a handful of words or if there'd just be a split between the French speaking ruling class and the English speaking peasant class. Such a split would likely see a lot more revolts from the peasants and mid-level nobility.
Hm, maybe. IIRC, the King of Denmark had toyed with the idea of invading to prop up Edgar (the son of Edward the Exile that Harold had usurped) and install him as a puppet;* maybe if he sees the Normans trying to set up a new regime in England, he figures the Saxons will greet him as liberators and decides to go in.
OOC: *this is OTL as well, incidentally
Well William's invasion did occur in a similar timeframe to Harald Hardred's own invasion in the North. If the timeframe is different we could either see England divided between them in a Danelaw like situation, perhaps even like the Edmund II Cnut division, or Harald is victorious and becomes another Cnut.I do wonder in the event of a new Danish invasion if you might just see England split into several different kingdoms. The concept of one united English crown was barely 200 years old at that point, which was a blink of the eye in the history of feudal Europe. If William wins it'd be a pretty easy to gain at least nominal control over the southern parts of the island while the more northern parts were likely going to be unwilling to join in. If they had some sort of support from the Danes they might be able to reassert an independent kingdom. A successful Norman invasion might just mean the reemergence of Wessex and Northumbria as separate kingdoms.
In this world, would there still be an English tongue? Bearing in mind how heavily Norman kings and Norman law shaped the tongues of Sicily, Dutchland (OOC: Netherlands), and Rumland, then if the bulk of the Normans settled in England, London may well be speaking a Romish tongue.Well, English underwent a lot of simplification following the Danish arrival so I suspect this is increased by the Normans. Especially if English loses its administrative status.
We probably see a greater influx of Norman and latinate words. Sicily and Aragon had something similar though less discernable due to both being latinate.
(OOC This is all pretty much OTL)
I think so. It'd be like the Franks in Gaul and Northmen in Armorica. Both ultimately adopted the local language albeit influenced by their own becoming French and Norman in the process.In this world, would there even be an English tongue? Considering how heavily Norman kings and Norman law shaped the tongues of Sicily, Dutchland (OOC: Netherlands), and Rumland, then if the bulk of the Normans settled in England, London may well be speaking a Romish tongue.
I think so. It'd be like the Franks in Gaul and Northmen in Armorica. Both ultimately adopted the local language albeit influenced by their own becoming French and Norman in the process.
Additional vocabulary for certain, especially where Norman would dominate. Perhaps grammar changes, e.g. the s plural might be more common.How do you think the Normans would’ve influenced the English language?