DBWI: Gustav III Erik born female

When people ask who the most important monarch in Swedish history is, usually they'll likely say Gustav II Adolf, who's political impact and victories in the 30 years war turned Sweden into a nation to be feared in Europe, and while I do agree he was important for that country, I think his son Gustav III Erik was more important, or atleast just as much as his father. His political reforms and delving into colonialism made gave everyone more of a reason to consider Sweden one of the great powers of Europe. His conquest outside of the continent especially, with New Sweden in North America, the Gold Coast in Africa, the Naledives in India and more, Sweden, while not a colonial empire on the same level as the British or Spanish and more so with the Netherlands and Denmark-Norway, did compete fairly well and maintained itself until around the 20th century with the former colonies still in contact with the mainland even after independence. Gustav was also rather keen on trying to secure the Vasa dynasty for as long as he could maintain, having two sons and three daughters. The dynasty of course wouldn't be forever as long after his death in the mid-1700s, Sweden's queen Margaret married Prince Henry of Prussia-Brandenburg and birthed Frederick I, ending the reign of the Swedish branch of the house of Vasa and the beginning of the Swedish branch of the house of Hohenzollern. Now, with the legacy that Gustav III left behind, that made me think if he either died in his youth or was born female. How would Sweden fair if the Vasa dynasty ended 100 years earlier? What would this ATL Gustav do? What happens to the nation (and Europe) as a whole?
 
Last edited:
A female would likely marry her first cousin of House Wittelsbach. Given the military record of Charles of Palatinate-Kleeburg in his cousin's service OTL, Sweden would likely remain warlike country of "new Vikings", though plunder can't support economy forever.
House of Palatinate-Kleeburg inheriting Sweden early, though, opens the whole another can of worm. Namely regarding future of Palatinate and Bavaria.
 
A female would likely marry her first cousin of House Wittelsbach. Given the military record of Charles of Palatinate-Kleeburg in his cousin's service OTL, Sweden would likely remain warlike country of "new Vikings", though plunder can't support economy forever.
House of Palatinate-Kleeburg inheriting Sweden early, though, opens the whole another can of worm. Namely regarding future of Palatinate and Bavaria.
It's possible, though I'm not sure how the Swedes and everyone else would react to a somewhat minor house like the Wittelsbachs instead of the Hohenzollerns inheriting the nation.
 
It's possible, though I'm not sure how the Swedes and everyone else would react to a somewhat minor house like the Wittelsbachs instead of the Hohenzollerns inheriting the nation.

Except the Wittelsbachs weren't a minor house. They produced several Holy Roman Emperors back in the day, plus they held the Palatinate and Bavaria and usually (until the end of the 30YW at least), the archbishopric of Cologne. If anyone was a minor house in the 1620s it was the Hohenzollerns who were the upstarts
 
Except the Wittelsbachs weren't a minor house. They produced several Holy Roman Emperors back in the day, plus they held the Palatinate and Bavaria and usually (until the end of the 30YW at least), the archbishopric of Cologne. If anyone was a minor house in the 1620s it was the Hohenzollerns who were the upstarts
I suppose you have a fair point, but compared to the Habsburgs and eventually the Hohenzollerns, they weren't as major, albeit were still strong compared to most other houses of the HRE.
 
I suppose you have a fair point, but compared to the Habsburgs and eventually the Hohenzollerns, they weren't as major, albeit were still strong compared to most other houses of the HRE.
They only became strong because they inherited Sweden- the miracle of Brandenburg could only have happened with the geopolitical clout that a familial alliance with Sweden conferred. If it had been Bavarians inheriting Sweden, they could potentially be just as strong as the Hohenzollerns were otl.
 

krieger

Banned
When people ask who the most important monarch in Swedish history is, usually they'll likely say Gustav II Adolf, who's political impact and victories in the 30 years war turned Sweden into a nation to be feared in Europe, and while I do agree he was important for that country, I think his son Gustav III Erik was more important, or atleast just as much as his father. His political reforms and delving into colonialism made gave everyone more of a reason to consider Sweden one of the great powers of Europe. His conquest outside of the continent especially, with New Sweden in North America, the Gold Coast in Africa, the Naledives in India and more, Sweden, while not a colonial empire on the same level as the British or Spanish and more so with the Netherlands and Denmark-Norway, did compete fairly well and maintained itself until around the 20th century with the former colonies still in contact with the mainland even after independence. Gustav was also rather keen on trying to secure the Vasa dynasty for as long as he could maintain, having two sons and three daughters. The dynasty of course wouldn't be forever as long after his death in the mid-1700s, Sweden's queen Margaret married Prince Henry of Prussia-Brandenburg and birthed Frederick I, ending the reign of the Swedish branch of the house of Vasa and the beginning of the Swedish branch of the house of Hohenzollern. Now, with the legacy that Gustav III left behind, that made me think if he either died in his youth or was born female. How would Sweden fair if the Vasa dynasty ended 100 years earlier? What would this ATL Gustav do? What happens to the nation (and Europe) as a whole?

I think that if Gustav III was born female, than his cousin Karl of Palatinate would ascend as Karl X. If that happened, Sweden won't have it's colonial empire. Karl was not that enthusiastic about ships and develompent of fleet and he only became convinced to Gustaf's policy when it gave clear succeses, but I doubt that short-tempered Karl would give it enough attention. On the other hand, there is one matter which Gustav neglected (and it was proven disastrous for Sweden) and Karl probably won't neglect (in fact, he even insulted Gustav for hiring "useless ships" instead of solving that matter). It's name is PLC. PLC lost almost half of an country while fighting Russians and Cossack rebels and only Gustav's neutrality in this war enabled it to survive and than become great power once again. If Swedes attacked from behind, Poland would be finished. You mention Margaret and her and Henry's ascension to the throne of Sweden, but you forgot the price which both Hohenzollerns and Sweden paid for it. Polish king Vladislaus V, grandson of John Casimir the Great renewed his claim to Sweden as a last living male Vasa. Thanks to reform of his grandfather and his father Louis II, Poland became an absolute monarchy in everything but in name. Also after the Great Turkish War it gained a lot of new lands on the coast of Black Sea including Moldavia, Wallachia, Crimea and former Russian territory of Astrakhan. Vladislaus, having these cards on his side forfeited Henry's claim to Prussia and annexed it directly to Poland and waged a ten-year lasting war of succesion which took many lives (including Queen Margaret herself, who was executed by vengeful and stern Vladislaus). The peace only was achieved after murder of Vladislaus by noblemen called Stanisław August Poniatowski who slept with his third wife and was afraid that ferocious king will behead him for doing it and overthrow of puppet Tsar Ivan VII by Russians. Still, despite of regency and war with Russia going on Sweden had to cede numerous territories to Poland - Livonia, Estonia, Bornholm, Prussia and a half of western Pomerania. Maybe with Karl on the Swedish throne, PLC will be finished once and for all in 1655 and we won't see all of this happening? Poland proper will go to Sweden under Wittelsbachs and Ruthenian and Lithuanian lands will come to Russia.
 
I think that if Gustav III was born female, than his cousin Karl of Palatinate would ascend as Karl X. If that happened, Sweden won't have it's colonial empire. Karl was not that enthusiastic about ships and develompent of fleet and he only became convinced to Gustaf's policy when it gave clear succeses, but I doubt that short-tempered Karl would give it enough attention. On the other hand, there is one matter which Gustav neglected (and it was proven disastrous for Sweden) and Karl probably won't neglect (in fact, he even insulted Gustav for hiring "useless ships" instead of solving that matter). It's name is PLC. PLC lost almost half of an country while fighting Russians and Cossack rebels and only Gustav's neutrality in this war enabled it to survive and than become great power once again. If Swedes attacked from behind, Poland would be finished. You mention Margaret and her and Henry's ascension to the throne of Sweden, but you forgot the price which both Hohenzollerns and Sweden paid for it. Polish king Vladislaus V, grandson of John Casimir the Great renewed his claim to Sweden as a last living male Vasa. Thanks to reform of his grandfather and his father Louis II, Poland became an absolute monarchy in everything but in name. Also after the Great Turkish War it gained a lot of new lands on the coast of Black Sea including Moldavia, Wallachia, Crimea and former Russian territory of Astrakhan. Vladislaus, having these cards on his side forfeited Henry's claim to Prussia and annexed it directly to Poland and waged a ten-year lasting war of succesion which took many lives (including Queen Margaret herself, who was executed by vengeful and stern Vladislaus). The peace only was achieved after murder of Vladislaus by noblemen called Stanisław August Poniatowski who slept with his third wife and was afraid that ferocious king will behead him for doing it and overthrow of puppet Tsar Ivan VII by Russians. Still, despite of regency and war with Russia going on Sweden had to cede numerous territories to Poland - Livonia, Estonia, Bornholm, Prussia and a half of western Pomerania. Maybe with Karl on the Swedish throne, PLC will be finished once and for all in 1655 and we won't see all of this happening? Poland proper will go to Sweden under Wittelsbachs and Ruthenian and Lithuanian lands will come to Russia.
A very interesting perspective. Though the issue with Sweden and Russia partitioning Poland is with the ethnic Polish and their supporters causing riots or outright rebellion for both nations. Also, if Poland somehow does regain independence from both nations eventually, would they still try to pursue a colonial empire similar to Sweden like they did OTL?
 

krieger

Banned
A very interesting perspective. Though the issue with Sweden and Russia partitioning Poland is with the ethnic Polish and their supporters causing riots or outright rebellion for both nations. Also, if Poland somehow does regain independence from both nations eventually, would they still try to pursue a colonial empire similar to Sweden like they did OTL?

In Swedish part riots and uprisings are inevitable. East of the Bug ethnic Poles were not that numerous, polonization of the masses started in early XVIIIth century. Ruthenian lands would be easily assimilated into Russia. The problem would be Lithuania proper. If Poland regained indepedence, they'd still strive for colonies but their attempts would be far less succesful than IOTL when king Sigismund V "the Sailor" (great-grandson of Vladislaus V "the Cruel") took the protection upon Madagascar pirates and enabled Siberian company to colonize Alaska, Oregon and California. Also he inherited Tobago and possesions in Venezuela from duke of Courland.
 
In Swedish part riots and uprisings are inevitable. East of the Bug ethnic Poles were not that numerous, polonization of the masses started in early XVIIIth century. Ruthenian lands would be easily assimilated into Russia. The problem would be Lithuania proper. If Poland regained indepedence, they'd still strive for colonies but their attempts would be far less succesful than IOTL when king Sigismund V "the Sailor" (great-grandson of Vladislaus V "the Cruel") took the protection upon Madagascar pirates and enabled Siberian company to colonize Alaska, Oregon and California. Also he inherited Tobago and possesions in Venezuela from duke of Courland.
True, but a less extent Polish colonial empire would also mean less competition and skirmishes from other empires. Not just the Swedish but also the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Danish, and eventually the Austrian and Italian colonial embassies as well. Not to mention problems with natives such as those subject to the Polish east India company.
 
Plus, without Swedish colonial projects in the Americas (specifically that of New Sweden), would relations between the kingdom and the Commonwealth of Virginia be any less sour over the claims of said colony?
 

krieger

Banned
True, but a less extent Polish colonial empire would also mean less competition and skirmishes from other empires. Not just the Swedish but also the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Danish, and eventually the Austrian and Italian colonial embassies as well. Not to mention problems with natives such as those subject to the Polish east India company.

True, especially French and British would benefit from not having Polish competition in claiming Pacific shore of North America for themselves. Maybe one colonial power would be even able to unify whole Northern America under it's yoke?
 
True, especially French and British would benefit from not having Polish competition in claiming Pacific shore of North America for themselves. Maybe one colonial power would be even able to unify whole Northern America under it's yoke?
I could see greater colonization of the continent by the other powers without the Polish, but the whole of northern america? I could barely see that. Especially given states like the Commonwealth of Virginia, the New England Confederation, the Lakota Confederacy and others try their best to stop or atleast slow the process of colonization so they themselves don't get absorbed by the European powers.
 

krieger

Banned
I could see greater colonization of the continent by the other powers without the Polish, but the whole of northern america? I could barely see that. Especially given states like the Commonwealth of Virginia, the New England Confederation, the Lakota Confederacy and others try their best to stop or atleast slow the process of colonization so they themselves don't get absorbed by the European powers.

I'm not sure about this one but if Polish are not present on the western coast of America than one state could gather it all for itself (the western coast not all of America), which could enable it dominate NA.
 
I'm not sure about this one but if Polish are not present on the western coast of America than one state could gather it all for itself (the western coast not all of America), which could enable it dominate NA.
Perhaps, but if that were the case then I would probably suspect the Spanish, considering they already had control of much of the pacific coastline of the continent and could probably gain more had things gone their way.
 

krieger

Banned
Perhaps, but if that were the case then I would probably suspect the Spanish, considering they already had control of much of the pacific coastline of the continent and could probably gain more had things gone their way.

That is also the possibility but French had large estates in Canada and Spain was on it's road to decline. Spain will sell this possesions to France or Britain, which are richer and do not lack settlers to colonize it.
 
Top