DBWI: German Invasion of the USSR

Gaius Julius Magnus

Gone Fishin'
What if Hitler and Germany had carried through with the plans known as Operation: Barbarossain 1941. Outright annexation would have been impossible but what would have happened. The Red Army, though big, was very poorly equiped and it's leadership had recently been purged, probably would have been overwhelmed by the more advanced and better led German Army. If a peace were made what would it be like?
 
The Germans would wilt on the vine, be defeated by General Winter, and then get drowned in a sea of Russian bodies, and likely pushes back after the Russians get their act together. Though this will likely depopulate the USSR of men for generations to come.
 
I'm not sure about that, actually. I agree that if the Soviets had time to get their act together it might have gone that way, but the Germans had a history of successful coups de main that gave them victories before they had faced the full force of their opponents strength. A few daring strokes, strong enough and fast enough in quick succession, might have brought the Soviets to the negotiating table. It would be bold but risky - just how the German high command liked it, it seems.
 

Kaptin Kurk

Banned
Well, I suppose this means the Germans never build the "Ostwand", so the question becomes, could the Germans knock out the Russians before Allies nuke Berlin? If so, they might have stopped the second allied attempt at dropping the bomb on Berlin, since they'd have more planes for western bomber intercept missions. Either way, the war probably ends in 47' instead of 46', worse case scenario for the Germans. With all those Russian resources at their command, no doubt they could have held out even longer.
 
I highly doubt that the soviets would win, remember this is 1941, not the 1944 soviet army that simply walked into Manchuria, this is barely a year after the Finnish war.
Remember how badly they performed, now imagine that against a large power like germany.

Im not saying that the germans would simply walk to the Urals, but it would still end up in german victory.

Now imagine what would happen with those resources under german hands.
 
'41 would definitely have been the best time for the Nazis to strike, considering that the reforms weren't finished and Defense in Depth had yet to be fully formed. I definitely agree that they wouldn't have succeeded, but it would have been misery on a scale that only the Western Slavs and Jews really experienced, although the 3-year air war and periodic raids over the control of the Channel can't have been fun to experience. I don't know what Blue Max is going on about, this isn't a DBWI, dude! (OOC: the war's already been stated to have ended in 1946.)

The Soviets would have had a field day if the Nazis had struck later, say '42-43, though. It would have been late '45 way earlier, not to mention giving them a taste of their own medicine. The USSR has always done well with rapid advancement, like the Far Eastern and Tabriz campaigns showed. They definitely would have struggled holding on to more than they gained OTL, though, that's been their weakpoint for decades: without the support from the SRK (OOC: Socialist Republic of Kurdistan) and Comintern forces Turkey would have been twice as bloody as Afghanistan was, and the rebels might have pushed both back to pre-occupation borders, as opposed to the pro-USSR/SRK treaty that they got. Even the intervention in Tanganyika is heading this way, but the Soviets seem to be letting local forces handle that more and more.
 
I think that Barbarossa was a good concept-but the actual plan executed would have been somewhat different. Kind of like how the 1943 invasion of Britain (Operation “Wasser Pinniped”) was based on the old 1940 plan...which name escapes me. (Like any discarded plan, it has been consigned to the dustbin of history for a reason. No one is ever going to resurrect something like that for discussion ever again.)

Anyway, they would probably have tweaked it into a three part offensive:

First Year: Army Group A would push straight for Leningrad, after the Finns tie down and divert as many Soviet armies as possible with an attack from the north (I mean, there's no way the Finns aren't going to join in this project!). Army Group B swings wide to protect the southern flank. The Baltic countries are liberated and Hitler holds off on letting the Waffen SS loose until he has set up collaborators to raise volunteer troops and labor battalions. Their ports will also support supply lines. Then, hole up for the winter. (I know, I know-"Barbarossa had no plans for winter fuel/equipment/etc.". That's been discussed a zillion times on this forum. That was just a technical detail to be worked out so it was, no doubt, already sitting in a file at the OKH. I mean, it's not like no one had ever heard of Napoleon, for crying out loud.)

Second Year: Group A launches another offensive direct toward Moscow. The Soviets push north to meet it and Group B swings south around the city and, while cutting off the road/rail network centered on Moscow, flanks and surrounds the city-kind of like a north/south Schlieffen Plan. The rest of the year is spent mopping up and dealing with remnants of the Red Army still wandering around, dazed, in the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

Third Year +: A & B push south at their leisure to eventually take the oilfields and the last of the USSR of any importance. The Soviets just keep fighting increasingly desperate rear guard actions-and make make an occasional stand at some godforsaken place like, say, Stalingrad-but it won't amount to much.

It would have been the world's biggest cakewalk, really. It's rather a pity that Stalin spoiled the show by surrendering as soon as the Japanese blitzed Manchuria.
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