DBWI: German High Seas Fleet destroyed at Jutland

Loghain

Banned
@Loghain - Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that I thought they were, just that's what the Generals all said.

To be honest, Kaiser Bill was mad in the first place for demanding such a far-away colony in the peace settlement. But he wanted his Place In The Sun...

Of course, Japan played it smart. By installing an 'independent' government, they got US acquiescence - President didn't like the Germans, Joe Public didn't like European colonialism...

I mean the quotes about
Samurais in Fight Ninjas in Shadows seems pretty accurate. Japanese punch well above their weight and then Have Diplomatic Coup De Grace. It was frankly amazing
 
It got them some diplomatic flack in the 80s of course - stuff about Japanese corporate practices in their allies' territory, plus revelations about the methods they used to put down the Communist insurrection in the late 60s... Though they managed to come through that after a few trials and a few more quiet suicides.

But anyway, back to the question. Do we think that defeat at Jutland would have lost Germany the war in and of itself? Or just prolonged it?

I'm unsure, though I think a longer war would have been bad for Germany - radical elements might have grown more in response to prolonged shortages.
 

Loghain

Banned
It got them some diplomatic flack in the 80s of course - stuff about Japanese corporate practices in their allies' territory, plus revelations about the methods they used to put down the Communist insurrection in the late 60s... Though they managed to come through that after a few trials and a few more quiet suicides.

But anyway, back to the question. Do we think that defeat at Jutland would have lost Germany the war in and of itself? Or just prolonged it?

I'm unsure, though I think a longer war would have been bad for Germany - radical elements might have grown more in response to prolonged shortages.

it might have lost it the war. Germany was always Dominant at Land. Jutland showed they can Pull their weight on sea as Well. British might tried to blockade germany. and if germany would be starving they wouldnt exactly have Firm rules for submarine engagement
 
I always think in the moral impact of the battle for the civilians. In a few decades, the germans did what french, spanish, dutch and others couldn't: end the rule of Britannia over the waves.

And though the government tried, the press got part of the list of losses. And that gave way to the Great Panic caused by unscrupulous media: calls for the return of the BEF, people leaving in the easternmost parts fearing an invasion, and calls for heads to explain (and more) the biggest military disaster in history.
 

Loghain

Banned
I always think in the moral impact of the battle for the civilians. In a few decades, the germans did what french, spanish, dutch and others couldn't: end the rule of Britannia over the waves.

And though the government tried, the press got part of the list of losses. And that gave way to the Great Panic caused by unscrupulous media: calls for the return of the BEF, people leaving in the easternmost parts fearing an invasion, and calls for heads to explain (and more) the biggest military disaster in history.

IMHO in hindisght the Death of one Kaiser sons could have be blow to morale instead of Rally around the flag moment.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Two "what if's"...

First, the German spy in the British Admiralty who provided positive proof that the RN had broken the HSF codes and was reading most of their most sensitive naval radio communications. What if he did not exist / had been caught &/or turned in 1914-15 / had failed to convince his superiors that it was all true? Jellicoe thought he was facing only the First Scouting Group and Battle Squadron III. He was most upset to find 20 of the All Highest's dreadnoughts crossing his tee.

And Beatty!! This is real ASB stuff. Not only does a British Admiral manage to lose 3 of his own battlecruisers in an engagement where he outnumbers Hipper (faulty ammunition handling encouraged from the very top), but his idiot Flag Captain manages to strand 5BS in front of the whole HSF - he was lucky only Malaya was sunk then when it took three hits in the boiler rooms and became target practice for every enemy ship, but damage wrought then saw two more QEs damaged and out of the battle, only to be sunk later by a U-boat and FSG later. But what really clinches it is that when he is actually doing something right in leading the HSF into Jellicoe's "trap", his squadron's appalling navigational skills result, instead of leading Scheer straight into the middle of the Grand Fleet, he manages to lead the HSF straight across Jellicoe's T. Beatty was lucky to be immolated when Lutzow put a shell into Lion's Q turret when the battlefleets clashed, as he would have been hung or shot back at Rosyth. In this case real life was stranger than AH as there is no way a senior RN officer would be that incompetent. What if he and his command crew were not?

The huge memorials at Chatham, Portsmouth & Devonport are dominated by the crews of the lost Grand and Battlecruiser Fleets - fortunately someone wisely decided not to list those taken when their ships actually surrendered on that black second day. Even today the names of Jellicoe & Beatty are excoriated in naval towns, and the surest way to start a fight is to debate the merits of one or both.
 
I'm not sure it's entirely-justified to blame the survivors for surrendering on the second day. What few dreadnoughts they had left were badly shot up, and while they could have achieved a breakthrough, it would have been bloody, and any ship that got through easy prey for the torpedo boats and destroyers hanging back for just such an eventuality. Not to mention the U-Boats shadowing the approaches to the British Isles and the English Channel, the latter squadrons forcing the Channel Fleet to choose between going to help the hapless Grand Fleet and leaving the U-Boats free reign in the Channel, or holding position to keep the Channel clear, as they ultimately chose to do. TBH though, I'm not sure the Channel Fleet could have gotten there in time, much less be of actual help.

Going back to the surrendering officers and crew, well, apart from the objective reality they had to face, there was also the psychological effect of the previous day. They'd just witnessed the High Seas Fleet all but literally rip the heart out of the Royal Navy, and actually force them to turn and run with their tails between their legs. And all through the night the Germans kept up the pressure with near-constant torpedo attacks, and even when the pressure let up in the morning, well, just before noon they spotted the smoke of German engines, quickly straddling the horizon in every direction and then the High Seas Fleet again closing in like a noose around their necks.
 
Would Britain still have her empire? IOTL the UK embarked on a massive naval buildup after the war that redlined its economy, setting the stage for the disintegration of the Empire.
 
OOC: I'm pretty sure the German plan was to use the High Seas Fleet as bait to lure the British out of port, and then have the u-boats sink the British ships as they left port. The u-boat portion pretty failed, which left the High Seas Fleet trying to get back intact despite the Grand Fleet interposing itself between them and their bases. The Germans got out of this having sunk more British ships than they lost, so it was a tactical German success.

The point is the High Seas Fleet slugging it out with the Grand Fleet and winning is pretty ASB, and everyone knew that. Either the u-boat idea winds up working, or they are able to sink more of the battlecruisers and then get away. Their entire strategy, when they weren't just being a fleet-in-being, was to try to isolate the British into bite size chunks and deal with them that way.
 
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