DBWI: Furthest Hitler could have conquered

FillyofDelphi

Banned
Agra said:
I dunno, he was originally born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, if he goes after the Bohemia maybe he goes after some other old Hapsburg land. I don't think Britain and France would jump at the chance to defend Yugoslavia if they let him get away with invading the Czechs. He was allied with the Italians, Germany could even use the Dalmatian War as an excuse to justify a partition.
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And flood his ethnostate with Southern Slavs? Even a cursory reading of his work would tell you he thought they were the poison pill that "infected" the Habsburg State and rotted them from the inside out. Given the extents he we through elsewhere to promote Germany for Germans, why would be suddenly be eager to rule over a bunch of people he thought sapped the Teutonic spirit?
 

ThirdMan2005

Banned
Well what if Hitler had entered some "non-aggression pat" with Stalin and later invaded him? That would give him time in the West.
 

steamboy

ThirdMan2005 said:
Well what if Hitler had entered some "non-aggression pat" with Stalin and later invaded him? That would give him time in the West.
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But again, to go where? You've got the Maginot line in the way and the Ardenne which simply cannot be crossed by anything other than infantry forces. Even today, its a bugger for modern equipment to try and traverse and it was only with the cutting of some roads through the region, all of which were done by military engineers (who you can bet marked each and every inch on maps for artillery) did it become more easily traversable. And that was in the 60's.

So you either try to send infantry forces through the Ardenne and run smack dab into the French army and its grand battery's of guns and dug in infantry. Or you do what the Allies were prepared for a swing into Belgium and Holland which is pokmarked with fortresses and defensive positions and against greater numbers. The Germans would be feeding men into a wood chipper.
 

m0585

CalBear said:
I'm not sure he would have, but that was the only way into France for a large army. The Ardennes was a no chance idea. Belgium? Well we all know what a flat God-awful place that is to fight, something that Hitler, who served on the Western Front had to remember. I mean the man was clearly half a bubble off plumb, just look at the insane laws he pushed through before he died drooling at the supper table, but he couldn't have actually been that out of touch.
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I was playing Germany in HOI III one time and ran the following simulation for a battle against France:

-Send infantry divisions into Belgium and the Netherlands (for more bases against Britain). The Allies pushed into Belgium to try to check my forces.
-Maintain infantry divisions on the Siegfried Line to hold (but no advance against) French soldiers on the Maginot Line.
-I combined six armored divisions and four mechanized infantry divisions into one force and sent them across southern Belgium. Then I had them turn northwest and push towards the English Channel.
-Once the armored forces reached the English Channel all Allied forces in Belgium had been effectively cut off. I was stunned to see that the AI hadn't left a sizeable reserve in central France.
-Once I liquidated the Allied divisions in Belgium, I reorganized and sent my armored divisions to seize the Channel ports while the infantry divisions advanced south and cut off the French forces in the Maginot Line.
-France surrendered about six weeks after the campaign began.

Not sure how well this would have played out IOTL. Surely the Allies, in this situation, would have left enough forces to deal with any potential armored thrust towards the Channel.
 
Orry

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
m0585 said:
I was playing Germany in HOI III one time and ran the following simulation for a battle against France:

-Send infantry divisions into Belgium and the Netherlands (for more bases against Britain). The Allies pushed into Belgium to try to check my forces.
-Maintain infantry divisions on the Siegfried Line to hold (but no advance against) French soldiers on the Maginot Line.
-I combined six armored divisions and four mechanized infantry divisions into one force and sent them across southern Belgium. Then I had them turn northwest and push towards the English Channel.
-Once the armored forces reached the English Channel all Allied forces in Belgium had been effectively cut off. I was stunned to see that the AI hadn't left a sizeable reserve in central France.
-Once I liquidated the Allied divisions in Belgium, I reorganized and sent my armored divisions to seize the Channel ports while the infantry divisions advanced south and cut off the French forces in the Maginot Line.
-France surrendered about six weeks after the campaign began.

Not sure how well this would have played out IOTL. Surely the Allies, in this situation, would have left enough forces to deal with any potential armored thrust towards the Channel.
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Well all know how realistsic HOI III is.......

I guess you played it on easy but what Mods did you use to handicap the French to allow that tactic to work. After you said it I tried a couple of times but even on easy the French counter attack from the south cuts my supply lines.
 

m0585

Orry said:
Well all know how realistsic HOI III is.......

I guess you played it on easy but what Mods did you use to handicap the French to allow that tactic to work. After you said it I tried a couple of times but even on easy the French counter attack from the south cuts my supply lines.
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It was set on easy; it was one of my first times playing. I didn't use any Mods at all. Like I said, I was completely stunned that the AI didn't leave any significant reserves to counter my armored thrust. It would have been so easy to cut off and destroy them.
 

avernite

m0585 said:
It was set on easy; it was one of my first times playing. I didn't use any Mods at all. Like I said, I was completely stunned that the AI didn't leave any significant reserves to counter my armored thrust. It would have been so easy to cut off and destroy them.
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Patch 1.2 had screwy AI, i bet that was where you were. Still good work even then, but indeed it had issues.

Germany in 1914 tried to fight Europe with significant allies, lost, and got cut down. In 1938 (or whenever) it is even weaker with less allies. Never gonna work in reality.
 
GDIS Pathe

GDIS Pathe

m0585 said:
It was set on easy; it was one of my first times playing. I didn't use any Mods at all. Like I said, I was completely stunned that the AI didn't leave any significant reserves to counter my armored thrust. It would have been so easy to cut off and destroy them.
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Just tried that in 1940 in Darkest Hour got my Panzers smashed forcing their way through the Meuse and then the French Mechanized forces tore into my force. Ended with French tanks clanking through Berlin by Christmas 42
 

m0585

avernite said:
Patch 1.2 had screwy AI, i bet that was where you were. Still good work even then, but indeed it had issues.

Germany in 1914 tried to fight Europe with significant allies, lost, and got cut down. In 1938 (or whenever) it is even weaker with less allies. Never gonna work in reality.
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You're probably right. The game got really wankish and screwy after that.
 

Rufus Shinra

GDIS Pathe said:
More Partial to Weygand myself though I'm wondering who the hell this De Gaulle guy is? Got him as a corp commander in my French game when I was moving through the North German Plain
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A very obscure French colonel, apparently a tank warfare writer who never got to test his admitedly-decent theories IRL due to the full-blown development of the MBT by the time the first real war happened between Persia and the Soviet Union. It does show Paradox doing its homework to have such a guy being in the game, however. Kudos to them.
 

Rufus Shinra

ThirdMan2005 said:
I would watch a curb-type show starring Hitler and the troubles and hilarious things his generals make him go through.
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- Mein Fuhrer, while I was going for vacation in Lichtenstein, my wife accidentally insulted a bar owner for his un-German food.
- So what?
- He sort of ran after my staff car when we bravely retreated from his awful dishes.
- Why should I care, oberleutenantfeldmarshalgruppengeneral von Sauekraut?
- He crossed the border during the pursuit. My forces there weren’t ready, so Bavaria was eventually annexed in the struggle. Believe me, our best negociators were on the case, and this was the most favourable outcome anybody on Earth could ever have achieved under such a situation.
 

cmakk1012

Hmm, I have to ask, what would have happened with Italy ITTL given the way Hitler idolized Il Duce? Would he have managed to sway Italy onto his side? The “Axis” they created basically died with Hitler’s passing and the political tumult in Germany after that.

I suppose it’s also interesting to consider if Italy had joined what effect it would have had on southern European geopolitics. Where would Italia Maggiore be today? Would it even exist? I could definitely see a victorious France and Britain stripping Libia and Italian Africa from them. Poor Italians ITTL, no cushy oil economy for them!
 
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GDIS Pathe

GDIS Pathe

cmakk1012 said:
I suppose it’s also interesting to consider if Italy had joined what effect it would have had on southern European geopolitics. Where would Italia Maggiore be today? Would it even exist? I could definitely see a victorious France and Britain stripping Libia and Italian Africa from them. Poor Italians ITTL, no cushy oil economy for them!
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Well there was that long bloody war crime filled campaign in Ethiopia that ended following old Mussos removal in the early 60s plus a large load of unrest in Libya that lasted until the early 90s but yeah Italy will suffer from not having Libya but, even Mussolini wasn't dumb enough to pick a fight with the Anglo-French
 

Jukra

I think all this Hitler-speculation is similar to Trotski-wanks on Soviet Union.

But surely we must all agree that despite the moral corruption and human rights violations of Göring's Reich 1938-1960 it beat the possibility of a new European general war which would have been very bloody. While all blood and fuss is great for alternate history novels it's not so for real life. Fascism was economically unsustainable in Italy, Spain and Germany and would succumb to implosion.
 

cmakk1012

GDIS Pathe said:
Well there was that long bloody war crime filled campaign in Ethiopia that ended following old Mussos removal in the early 60s plus a large load of unrest in Libya that lasted until the early 90s but yeah Italy will suffer from not having Libya but, even Mussolini wasn't dumb enough to pick a fight with the Anglo-French
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Not to mention the ongoing insurgency by the Albanian Liberation Army. No matter how liberal and equitable Italy tries to be today it is undeniable that their strength has been built on the back of brutal colonialism.

Libia (or Libya, by the Arabic spelling) was mostly disturbed by international Islamic organizations funded by the Soviets IIRC; the native Libyans were highly disenfranchised until the fall of Fascism and so flocked to extremist organizations. Things are better for them now than ever before, even if that’s not saying much.

Jukra said:
I think all this Hitler-speculation is similar to Trotski-wanks on Soviet Union.

But surely we must all agree that despite the moral corruption and human rights violations of Göring's Reich 1938-1960 it beat the possibility of a new European general war which would have been very bloody. While all blood and fuss is great for alternate history novels it's not so for real life. Fascism was economically unsustainable in Italy, Spain and Germany and would succumb to implosion.
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If Göring had gone through with the hardline plan of exterminating “undesirables” as opposed to enacting the Vertreibung (OOC: Expulsion) the human rights violations may have very well resembled the horrors wrought by war.
 
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