DBWI: French Republic lasts a little longer?

Meh.

If you ask me, our system of government (which while a republic, has a system of checks and balances that the French lacked) was how the United States managed to not only survive with its government intact, but expand across the continent.

From Florida to the Hudson Bay. An impressive sight on the maps, even though Burr's Republic in the Ohio and Louisianna was almost as impressive in it's heyday.
 

Gian

Banned
From Florida to the Hudson Bay. An impressive sight on the maps, even though Burr's Republic in the Ohio and Louisianna was almost as impressive in it's heyday.

It was (thankfully) short-lived.

Think about it. Burr attempted to plant the Jacobin model into the US by declaring himself Lord Protector, and then massacred anyone who opposed him, whether it was the Miami, Illinois, and Meskwaki* tribes, or any of the settlers (both Anglo and Cajun) who called him out. Nevertheless, by 1814, Andrew Jackson finally put an end to the blood-soaked insanity following Burr's capture in New Orleans

*Sac-Fox-Kickapoo
 

Gian

Banned
And sure, our federal system wasn't perfect. After all, we happened to be the last Western country to abolish slavery (Brazil I think, never did), and we're still trying to figure out the perfect balance between the interests of the settlers and the Indian tribes.

But, compared to France's anarco-republicanism, there's no system of government I would rather salute to than the government of the United States of America.

OOC: BTW, I'm RPing as a Filipino-American living in the Niagara Falls, UC*-Tonawanda, NY* metro area. The area is a major metropolitan region for the Iroquois tribes, as is the Onondaga City¹ area.

*OTL Niagara Falls, Ontario and Buffalo, NY respectively
¹OTL Syracuse, NY
 
Well, for one, I'm not sure that the "White Terror" of 1941-44, in which 2 million Black Africans, North Africans, and Roma were either deported or thrown into prison camps(of which 400,000 were executed as "enemies of the King"), would have ever happened; remember, Genseric I(or Geserique, the Teuton Usurper as many Frenchmen call him) was King at the time(enthroned in 1937 after the *highly* suspicious death of Francois IV-many in France still believe he was murdered.), and from one of the Holy German Imperial families at that-sadly, a good few of them(though perhaps not a majority) were at the forefront of the promotion of scientific racism during the first several decades of this century(and by 1930, those that actively and openly challenged it were sometimes exiled, usually to Great Britain; Sophie Augustine of Hesse, one of the greatest British biological scientists of this era, was one of these unlucky souls.). And Genseric himself had been the victim of an assassination attempt by a Romani woman in 1933 while he was visiting Mexico(Angelica Castro, the assassin in question, was a citizen of Pacifica at the time, but she had relatives in Mexico City and a few other places in Mexico, as well as San Antonio, Texas, were her brother Roberto fled after the Mexican Imperial authorities tried to arrest her) .

What's rather sad about this, by the way, is that the Roma were well on their way to becoming fully assimilated into French society, thanks to the Reforme Bernouilliste in 1893, until the time of Genseric's rise, as were a good number of the North Africans. Truth is, IOTL, too many Frenchmen at that time respected the King and dared not go against the monarchy until it was too late. Of course, that's changed now, and certainly, the French learned their lesson quite well, but, still, perhaps if the monarchy had ended earlier, the "White Terror" might never have happened, as it would have been much harder to do under a Republican system(the Syrians attempted a similar stunt with their Lebanese minority in the '80s; it did not end well for the Abubaker regime at all.).

Compared to the "White Terror", what the original Revolutionaries did, although still terrible, was mere peanuts, as the "White Terror" was nothing less than a massive campaign of violent oppression and state sponsored ethnic cleansing.

OOC: Okay, well, to be honest, I really did feel that there was too nice of a picture being painted of Monarchist France, so I decided to counter that. Now, granted, Genseric's regime isn't quite comparable to, say, the Nazis, but still pretty awful(think: monarchist Pol Pot with fewer deaths and with far less agricultural destruction, and with elements of Mussolini.). And, unfortunately, perhaps not quite as unlikely as we might think. The good news is, though, France ITTL has made amends just like the post-fascist German governments did IOTL.

Also, Pacifica is California + everything west of the Rocky Mountain watersheds + the Rio Grande down to *Arizona, and minus those parts in the United States(which I assume includes the Oregon Country as well). Texas, also a republican state, is basically everything the OTL Republic of Texas claimed minus anything north of the 37th parallel. Pacifica is neutral, but Texas was an enemy of Imperial Mexico up until the 1960s, with the Treaty of Austin in 1962.
 
Well, for one, I'm not sure that the "White Terror" of 1941-44, in which 2 million Black Africans, North Africans, and Roma were either deported or thrown into prison camps(of which 400,000 were executed as "enemies of the King"), would have ever happened; remember, Genseric I(or Geserique, the Teuton Usurper as many Frenchmen call him) was King at the time(enthroned in 1937 after the *highly* suspicious death of Francois IV-many in France still believe he was murdered.), and from one of the Holy German Imperial families at that-sadly, a good few of them(though perhaps not a majority) were at the forefront of the promotion of scientific racism during the first several decades of this century(and by 1930, those that actively and openly challenged it were sometimes exiled, usually to Great Britain; Sophie Augustine of Hesse, one of the greatest British biological scientists of this era, was one of these unlucky souls.). And Genseric himself had been the victim of an assassination attempt by a Romani woman in 1933 while he was visiting Mexico(Angelica Castro, the assassin in question, was a citizen of Pacifica at the time, but she had relatives in Mexico City and a few other places in Mexico, as well as San Antonio, Texas, were her brother Roberto fled after the Mexican Imperial authorities tried to arrest her) .

What's rather sad about this, by the way, is that the Roma were well on their way to becoming fully assimilated into French society, thanks to the Reforme Bernouilliste in 1893, until the time of Genseric's rise, as were a good number of the North Africans. Truth is, IOTL, too many Frenchmen at that time respected the King and dared not go against the monarchy until it was too late. Of course, that's changed now, and certainly, the French learned their lesson quite well, but, still, perhaps if the monarchy had ended earlier, the "White Terror" might never have happened, as it would have been much harder to do under a Republican system(the Syrians attempted a similar stunt with their Lebanese minority in the '80s; it did not end well for the Abubaker regime at all.).

Compared to the "White Terror", what the original Revolutionaries did, although still terrible, was mere peanuts, as the "White Terror" was nothing less than a massive campaign of violent oppression and state sponsored ethnic cleansing.

OOC: Okay, well, to be honest, I really did feel that there was too nice of a picture being painted of Monarchist France, so I decided to counter that. Now, granted, Genseric's regime isn't quite comparable to, say, the Nazis, but still pretty awful(think: monarchist Pol Pot with fewer deaths and with far less agricultural destruction, and with elements of Mussolini.). And, unfortunately, perhaps not quite as unlikely as we might think. The good news is, though, France ITTL has made amends just like the post-fascist German governments did IOTL.

Also, Pacifica is California + everything west of the Rocky Mountain watersheds + the Rio Grande down to *Arizona, and minus those parts in the United States(which I assume includes the Oregon Country as well). Texas, also a republican state, is basically everything the OTL Republic of Texas claimed minus anything north of the 37th parallel. Pacifica is neutral, but Texas was an enemy of Imperial Mexico up until the 1960s, with the Treaty of Austin in 1962.

Yeah, certainly not one of the best moments in my nation's history.:( Fortunately the White Terror regime was defeated by the alliance of Britain, Mexico, and Russia, leading to the fall of the Third Kingdom. Still, it was so blatantly obvious that Francis III was the legitimate King. He may have only been 7 at the time, but that didn't stop Ginseric from claiming he murdered his father. Hell, a team of British special forces had to get him out of the country. Ginseric ironically was much more like Robespierre than he would have liked; they were both populist demagogues, and they both wanted to purify France. Still, though, you are naive if you think that it wouldn't have happened under a Republic; just look at the lovely regime of President Richard Hugh Drake in the USA.
 

Gian

Banned
Richard Hugh Drake only controlled the South (which we call the Southern Confederacy, since he claimed he was rightfully President (which he wasn't)) during the Civil War before we eventually triumphed in 1875. If there was one thing Drake's Burr-esque dictatorship did any good, it's that his regime's utter mistreatment (an understatement, really) of the slaves, the Indians (especially the Cherokee and Seminole, who wound up allying with us) and anyone who opposed his pro-slavery agenda wound up getting us to abolish slavery.
 
Richard Hugh Drake only controlled the South (which we call the Southern Confederacy, since he claimed he was rightfully President (which he wasn't)) during the Civil War before we eventually triumphed in 1875. If there was one thing Drake's Burr-esque dictatorship did any good, it's that his regime's utter mistreatment (an understatement, really) of the slaves, the Indians (especially the Cherokee and Seminole, who wound up allying with us) and anyone who opposed his pro-slavery agenda wound up getting us to abolish slavery.

Well, yeah, I would say Drake was just as bad as Ginseric. Just because he didn't have as many possible victims, doesn't mean he didn't treat the victims he did have terribly cruelly. The Cherokee and the Seminole were completely wiped out. That is something that fortunately even Ginseric wasn't able to accomplish. Still, Drake was popular enough with the people of the South. And for that matter, the only reason why all the slaves were spared was because his men refused to carry out the order to kill them all as the Southern Confederacy surrendered. Overall, I would say Drake was the worst tyrant ever to exist.
 

Gian

Banned
Well, yeah, I would say Drake was just as bad as Ginseric. Just because he didn't have as many possible victims, doesn't mean he didn't treat the victims he did have terribly cruelly. The Cherokee and the Seminole were completely wiped out. That is something that fortunately even Ginseric wasn't able to accomplish. Still, Drake was popular enough with the people of the South. And for that matter, the only reason why all the slaves were spared was because his men refused to carry out the order to kill them all as the Southern Confederacy surrendered. Overall, I would say Drake was the worst tyrant ever to exist.

Yeah. The Cherokee survivors even wound up as the seventh nation of the Iroquois (linguistic unity and such, IDK the reason). As did the Seminole survivors into the Unified Muscogee Nation
 
Richard Hugh Drake only controlled the South (which we call the Southern Confederacy, since he claimed he was rightfully President (which he wasn't)) during the Civil War before we eventually triumphed in 1875. If there was one thing Drake's Burr-esque dictatorship did any good, it's that his regime's utter mistreatment (an understatement, really) of the slaves, the Indians (especially the Cherokee and Seminole, who wound up allying with us) and anyone who opposed his pro-slavery agenda wound up getting us to abolish slavery.

Ah yes, Drake, the former senator from Georgia who tried to steal the 1868 election.

Well, yeah, I would say Drake was just as bad as Ginseric. Just because he didn't have as many possible victims, doesn't mean he didn't treat the victims he did have terribly cruelly. The Cherokee and the Seminole were completely wiped out. That is something that fortunately even Ginseric wasn't able to accomplish. Still, Drake was popular enough with the people of the South. And for that matter, the only reason why all the slaves were spared was because his men refused to carry out the order to kill them all as the Southern Confederacy surrendered. Overall, I would say Drake was the worst tyrant ever to exist.

Certainly the worst in North America for sure.

Yeah. The Cherokee survivors even wound up as the seventh nation of the Iroquois (linguistic unity and such, IDK the reason). As did the Seminole survivors into the Unified Muscogee Nation

The Iroquois and the Creek were rightly applauded for their extending an arm of aid to the Cherokee and Seminole, even then.

OOC: Arm of aid = helping hand. ;)
 

Gian

Banned
You goddamn know that Burr and Drake were heros.

They weren't.

Burr was a no-good traitor who declared himself Lord Protector and murdered anyone in his path. Drake was a genocidal despot who attacked the Cherokee and Seminoles because they opposed his rule.

That both names are despised, or at least held in contempt, by a majority of Americans is a testament to their foul deeds.
 
Now, back on topic.

I think the Republic had a good chance of surviving. If the Robespierre regime had fallen to a moderate (maybe Dantonist) coup instead of Robespierre falling under substantial influence from Marat and the Hebertists as in our world, the Republic has a much higher chance of surviving.
 
There is a Difference

You goddamn know that Burr and Drake were heros.

How plebeian.

Burr and Drake were USURPERS, you moron! The only hereditary thing about them were their bastard ancestors. Just another lousy bunch of sans culottes waving banners over the bodies of their martyred betters.

A proper Monarchial rule depends on having a hereditary elite, bred and formed to the role they must play. To compare the monarchial system with a barbarous dictatorship is just -- wait.

Are you a gremlin? Gremlining is verboten by the code of this werk. Or, more like, are you a police spy trying to gain the names and werksigs of those who agree with your dunderheadedness? Censor -- I call for banishment!
 
Now, back on topic.

I think the Republic had a good chance of surviving. If the Robespierre regime had fallen to a moderate (maybe Dantonist) coup instead of Robespierre falling under substantial influence from Marat and the Hebertists as in our world, the Republic has a much higher chance of surviving.

Precisely. If you can somehow prevent the assassination of Msr. Danton in 1793, you might be able to save the French Republic.
 
Precisely. If you can somehow prevent the assassination of Msr. Danton in 1793, you might be able to save the French Republic.

Nah, Danton's ideas were still unworkable. He had the support of the Sans Culottes, but not the people outside Paris. Danton being Consul isn't going to prevent the French defeat in the Battle of Brussels, where most of the French regular army was destroyed. It also isn't going to prevent all of Europe from being pitted against France.
 
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