DBWI : Frankokratia never prospered

The Frankokratia (also known as Latinokratia in the middle-age) is a term than descirbe (after the Fourth Crusade(1204)), a number of primarily French and Italian Crusader states established on the territory of the dissolved Byzantine Empire.

They suffered a lot of struggle in beginning but they ended up by prospered and by imposing themselves in Anatolia, the Near East, ...

But WI these states disappeared quickly ?
what POD seems the most realistic ?
What would this world like ?
 
I don't mean to knock the Greeks, but it's hard for me to see. The Greeks were wealthy and prosperous, but were lacking leadership. Once they got a government that handled itself well (or competently)....
 
The Frankokratia (also known as Latinokratia in the middle-age) is a term than descirbe (after the Fourth Crusade(1204)), a number of primarily French and Italian Crusader states established on the territory of the dissolved Byzantine Empire.

They suffered a lot of struggle in beginning but they ended up by prospered and by imposing themselves in Anatolia, the Near East, ...

But WI these states disappeared quickly ?
what POD seems the most realistic ?
What would this world like ?
Well that makes your Middle European heritage plain ;). The Sicilians prefer the term Latin Empire or Latin Romania since they ended up with most of those states!
If those fail then the King of Sicily doesn't get to claim the Imperial Mantle and that may affect their relationship with Rome and Italy to the north. Perhaps this also bolsters Venece relative to Genova?
Perhaps the Greek Roman successors manage to reband together? Or Cyprus has a similar strong role as the eastern linchpin?
 
Well that makes your Middle European heritage plain ;). The Sicilians prefer the term Latin Empire or Latin Romania since they ended up with most of those states!

Ah yes but seen all theses states were very attached to French culture(from a little to hugely ).
It's for than a lot of people use the term of Frankokratia but it's true the Sicilian prefer the term of Latinokratia since their king crowned himself emperor of Romania. But the french answer is than Sicilian rulers are french :p (Anjou dynasty) and , all these states were influenced by the French culture to varying degrees from a little to hugely.

Perhaps this also bolsters Venece relative to Genova?

Yeah Veneita lost a lot of ressource in Greece (in vain) and Genoa take advantage of that, and without the help of Frankokratians state , Genoa would not kept its territories in Crimea.

I don't mean to knock the Greeks, but it's hard for me to see. The Greeks were wealthy and prosperous, but were lacking leadership. Once they got a government that handled itself well (or competently)....
Perhaps the Greek Roman successors manage to reband together? Or Cyprus has a similar strong role as the eastern linchpin?

It would be weird to me to see the Greek Roman successors states reband together, the fourth crusade was very harmful to them and they were really divided without real power. Cyprus would surely became less succesfull i mean a lot of their actual sucess is based on being an exchange zone bewteen a lot of these frankokratian states.


Seen the Seljuk were also really divided if the frankokratia never prospered maybe the Mongols would profit of this and conquer all of Anatolia and Greece ?
 
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Deleted member 97083

Without the Latin Empire, Turks would conquer Constantinople and Egypt and rule the Balkans for 500 years.
 
Well, without the Latin Empire's expulsion of the Venetians in 1342 the Serenissima would probably have remained a minor or even major power in the Mediterranean. No Latin Empire in Sicily means there's no force driving the Italian city states to band together for protection. The lack of a papally blessed alliance and the addition of Venetian competition make it doubtful that Genoa would ever unify the Italian city states. They might have remained separate entities for centuries or they might have fallen prey to Sicilian conquest. It's hard to imagine a world without The Most Serene Republic of Italy though. Republicanism would probably take a lot longer to show up, if it did at all.
 
Without the Latin Empire, Turks would conquer Constantinople and Egypt and rule the Balkans for 500 years.

Interesting but a little unlikely I mean they were pretty divided and not even respected by others islamic realms. They would have to fight the sucessor of Mongol, other Islamic states and crusaders. Did you get a scenario in mind ?

In my opinion the mongol or their sucessors would surely stretching here, at least in the begining.

Well, without the Latin Empire's expulsion of the Venetians in 1342 the Serenissima would probably have remained a minor or even major power in the Mediterranean. No Latin Empire in Sicily means there's no force driving the Italian city states to band together for protection. The lack of a papally blessed alliance and the addition of Venetian competition make it doubtful that Genoa would ever unify the Italian city states. They might have remained separate entities for centuries or they might have fallen prey to Sicilian conquest. It's hard to imagine a world without The Most Serene Republic of Italy though. Republicanism would probably take a lot longer to show up, if it did at all.

Yeah it was one of the great events in history, the most funny is than a lot of modern historians are nowadays persuaded than Sicillian were not interested by Italy.
They consider themself as Greek-French and were most interested to reform the Eastern Roman Empire and govern the Frankokratians state.
However without this union these Italians realm would surely suffer the same fate as the duchy of Savoy.

Ah yes i totally agree a world without the Republican League of Italy (The Most Serene Republic of Italy) would be hard to imagine especially seen all their peculiarities and their history. However even if they helped to promote Republicanism because of them he's rather frowned upon in France, Eastern Roman empire/Latin empire, ... since Republicanism = the Republican league of Italy in these countries.

Also in my opinion the long Franco-Sicilian friendship would not last without this league that wanted to (recover) Piedmont and weaken the Latin empire.

I wonder what could have prevented the emergence of the Frankokratian states ?
 
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Ah yes i totally agree a world without the Republican League of Italy (The Most Serene Republic of Italy) would be hard to imagine especially seen all their peculiarities and their history. However even if they helped to promote Republicanism because of them he's rather frowned upon in France, Eastern Roman empire/Latin empire, ... since Republicanism = the Republican league of Italy in these countries.

Also in my opinion the long Franco-Sicilian friendship would not last without this league that wanted to (recover) Piedmont and weaken the Latin empire.

I wonder what could have prevented the emergence of the Frankokratian states ?

One way would be the Greeks getting their act together and not falling into civil wars every few generations. Keeping Manuel from power or at least having him being sane enough to not order the Massacre of the Latins would also help keep the crusaders from going to Greece. Of course another option would be to keep the crusades from happening at all, but that's a much bigger PoD. Or maybe the Frankokratians could fall to a foreign invader, like the Mongols or Timur?
 
I've always had this weird idea for a timeline where Trezibond manages to slowly spread into western Anatolia and then retake Constantinople, reforming the Eastern Empire. I mean, it was ruled by the old Byzantine dynasty and their ruler had a lot of sway with the Orthodox population. Its a long-shot, but a fun scenario nonetheless.
 
One way would be the Greeks getting their act together and not falling into civil wars every few generations. Keeping Manuel from power or at least having him being sane enough to not order the Massacre of the Latins would also help keep the crusaders from going to Greece. Of course another option would be to keep the crusades from happening at all, but that's a much bigger PoD. Or maybe the Frankokratians could fall to a foreign invader, like the Mongols or Timur?

Yeah but i search a pod after the fourth crusade, seen these states were really prosespours but suffer many struggle in the begining and i want to know how the world will developp with a vaccum of power in Greece.

Or maybe the Frankokratians could fall to a foreign invader, like the Mongols or Timur?

It could be interesting but for this we would need to weaken the Frankokratians.

Maybe butterflied the crusade in Greece and Anatolia lead by Louis VIII ?

Epirus, Bulgaria, Nicaea, Seljuk, .. all of them really suffered and never stand on their own feet again after this crusade and he really restored order in the Frankokratians states (they were in a very bad shape) But if he didn't intervened another catholic country would surely come to helped them. Else we could find a mean to cut the help or the settlement they received in their history that allow them to establish a solid foundation or we can modify the territories received by the crusaders, or the state formed after the fourth crusade ?

I've always had this weird idea for a timeline where Trezibond manages to slowly spread into western Anatolia and then retake Constantinople, reforming the Eastern Empire. I mean, it was ruled by the old Byzantine dynasty and their ruler had a lot of sway with the Orthodox population. Its a long-shot, but a fun scenario nonetheless.

Yeah it was a prosperous dynasty but unfortunately their navy was really small and they quickly lost the control of the seas but without succesful cruaders states they could try with their wealth and power to bring the greeks together, but they lack men, navy and they suffered the same fate that others Eastern Roman dynasty a lot of civil war.
 
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Gian

Banned
Well, didn't the Frankokratia managed to "go native" and adopt Orthodox Christianity after the expulsion of the Venetians? After all, that managed to endear them to the population a bit and thus solidify their reign.

So maybe they don't do that.
 
Well, didn't the Frankokratia managed to "go native" and adopt Orthodox Christianity after the expulsion of the Venetians? After all, that managed to endear them to the population a bit and thus solidify their reign.

Yeah the Sicilian excommunication and the creation of The Most Serene Republic of Italy supported by the papacy really backfired them, this resulted in the schism of the West and the popularity of the Crusaders really increased after that and in the end the pro-Avignon league finally adopted the Orthodox Christianity which greatly reduced tensions with local in the Frankokratians state.
But they never really became native, I mean they adopted a lot of local custom, some words, ... But the French is still the administrative language in these areas and
the language of the elite (even the common language in some states), they played each minorities against the others and we see the French and Sicilian influence everywhere, you know Frankokratians state still encourage the French-speaking immigration.

It's more a merger these states often consider themselves as French-Greek, French-Armenian, French-Syriac, ...

But yes without this conversion the crusaders would still be considered as oppressor and would never acquire the religious support. The Greeks would eventually revolt en masse and some will try to took profit of this.
Moreover the war against the papacy (we fought together against a common enemy) and the expulsion of Venetians (the Greek, French, Sicilians, ... the scapegoat of a lot of their problems) allow them to unite.

Thanks now i get a lot of POD :) .

But in your opinion
What would this world like ?
I mean a lot of butterfly would happened, this world would be so different
 
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