DBWI: France suprised in the Ardennes

How in God's name could the Germans prevent France from doing any scouting along the entire front?

doubtful they could. But if they made a major push against the French scouts all along the front and launched several diversionary attacks and just generally confused things all over, the German forces moving through the Ardennes might just make it part of the way before anyone realizes what's really going on. My point is that the Germans just didn't have to go charging in and hope for the best... they could have tried some subterfuge... but they didn't really do any kind of prep at all..
 
I guess if they eliminate enough scouts and do diversionary attacks they could have made the reports so confusing the French wouldn't be sure what was going on. Something of a long shot but probably possible.
 
Pure Silliness.

They got attacked in the Ardennes in the First World War, and yeah, they knew that Panzers were the game, because they had observers in Poland.

One has to wonder, though. The Treaty of Paris looked like another Versailles to the Germans--Secession of Baden-Wutemburg and the Rhineland, creation of an independent Bavaria. The Red Army's Milking of Eastern Germany and their attempt to "indoctrinate" Poles and Eastern Germans sounds like a war crime all over again. After the crackdowns in the 1970s, I wonder if Germany will ever really rise again, or whether their time has passed.

On the other hand, Mussolini might have gotten involved, instead of being the Italian Playboy leader who spends his days seducing his secretaries and dying of venereal disease.

Finally, I think Tojo Hideki would have taken a larger role, rather than commit suicide after two weeks in office. The Japanese surrender in 1942 was the result of disastrous luck on their end, and a logical conclusion to allied punishment against them.

Take about a potential meltdown. Those A-Bombs could have been around for that war, instead of emerging in the 1970s.
 
It looks to me the Germans finally turned the corner. After all the USSR fell in 1997 and so the Red Army is no longer there to milk them. The Germans are slowly reuniting as they are able to play the French and the Spanish against each other. The US, as usual, is sitting on the sidelines trading with everyone while making sure that no one interferes with their trading.
 

Archibald

Banned
According to historians Gamelin accident in march and the rise of a new generation of officers - De Hautecloque, De Lattre, De Gaulle, Delestraint...- greatly helped the french high command.

An incredible story has recently surfaced. It seems German plans were on board a plane which get lost over Belgium on 10th January 1940!
If the germans hadn't barely recovered these plans (which described German attack on Belgium, as the allies planned and as it happened) maybe Hitler could have changed its plans and listened Von Manstein.

Thanks to St Exupery' daring mission on 10th may German movements were detected and countered. Bloch MB-174 in general easily escaped 109's and played a crucial role.
Raw firepower of B-1bis tanks did the rest in Gembloux, crushing Panzer III to bits.
The rest is history
 
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Pure Silliness.

They got attacked in the Ardennes in the First World War, and yeah, they knew that Panzers were the game, because they had observers in Poland.

I admit the odds against it is long as the French would have to be foolish to not allow for the possibility but the Germans ignored French preperations and that is near ASB as well.
 
Why do you people keep going on and on and on about Tanks? An interesting concept they were, but they had no place in mechanized wafare. Horse back is, and always was, the best way to go. Hence why Tanks aren't being used anymore.
 
OOC: Cavalry was couldn't stand up to massed infantry as early as the ACW not talking about tanks! There was a reason that every major power had built tanks before WWII, they were already useful in WWI.
 
If the French had been outmanuvered and decimated in the Ardennes , it is highly possible that the German Panzerstrategy could have achieved it's full potential- if their panzers had moved fast enough , vast parts of the French army would have been thrown into total chaos - until the Panzers run out of fuel and ammo that is . Still , the French would probably have to dig in behind the Lorie - I doubt that even the capture of Paris would have been enough to force it's surrender , especially as seen by the Soviets grand invasion of Europe in the early 50's , where Zhukov reached Paris before the American Expeditionary forces threw his overextended army out of most of Western Europe( out into Poland) in three months under Patton .

That seems way too ASB - after all, punching an armoured attack through the French lines would just have left it wide open to being cut off and destroyed by the French reserves, wouldnt it?
 
Personally I think that people underestimate the effects of the delay caused by the Belgian Chasseurs Ardennais heroic defence of St. Vith and Bastogne. Without those few days of resistance, it would have been hard for the French to redeploy their 7th Army to defend the Meuse. Ironically it was revealed after the war that the Belgian commanders had planned a rapid withdrawal but that German airborne units had cut the telephone wires that might have delivered those orders.
 
I agree with mostlyharmless. Were it not for the valiant effort of Belgian forces in the Ardennes, in addition to the failure of the German paratroop assault on Eben Emael, whose garrison wasn't forced to surrender until 16 June, the French could not have held back the German assault at the Meuse, despite all their preparation. French doctrine was far too heavily wedded to the Maginot Line, and if these two events hadn't occured, and the Germans had been able to cross the Meuse between 12-15 May, there wasn't anything in place to stop them. The French had more heavily armoured and gunned tanks than the Germans, but the panzer forces had speed on their side. Had the Germans been able to break Belgian defences in the opening 48 hours, they surely wouldn't have been halted at the Oise-Sambre line (OTL Battle of Chauncy) in late June '40, and Stalin would never have broken his non-aggression pact with Hitler on its first anniversary.

It was certainly a hard slog for all sides, those three years. Though massed armoured columns had smashed Poland in the opening days of the war within four weeks, once Germany faced foes its equal on the battlefield, the European War became a slightly more mobile version of the Great War on both the Western and Eastern Fronts. Tank battles on both fronts proved to be nothing more than a mechanised version of the trench warfare of a generation before.

When the von Rundstedt junta government finally ordered the Wehrmacht to lay down its arms on 21 May 1942, there was no discussion on the Anglo-French side of a "victors' peace." Stalin wanted to crack down on Germany, even break it into several different independent states, but Britian and France would have none of that. The lessons of Versailles were loud and clear to them, that a Germany made prostrate is more dangerous than a strong, prosperous German state in central Europe would be. This was also the view advocated by the US, acting a neutral observer at the peace talks held in Oslo during the summer of 1942.

Though Germany has surrendered, they found themselves in a rather strong position at these talks. Their forces on 21 May '42 are battered, yet despite the loss of East Prussia outside the Könisberg pocket, they still maintain control over significant amounts of foreign territory, having held Allied forces at the Meuse for several months in the West, and having prevented (with heavy losses) the Soviet capture on Posen (Poznan).

As we all know, the Treaty of Oslo signed in Sept 42 stipulated the following:

The USSR receives the Baltic states and East Prussia (all areas considered liable to side with a resugent Germany). The Karelian areas of Finland conquered in '40 are to be returned to Finland (for leaving the Axis), though Petsamo is to remain in Russian hands.

Poland will be resurrected and retain its former territory, minus Poznan province.

Germany will lose the Saar to France and East Prussia to the USSR, yet regain Posen (Poznan) province from Poland. An internationally-monitored plebiscite will be held to determine whether the former Austria will remain in the Reich. A "yes" vote on independence will be guaranteed by all Allied Powers, with military force if necessary.

All Italian colonies fall under joint Anglo-French control.
 
OOC: Just to clear things up--that's a "Germany Suing for Peace", not surrendering. Also, you've neglected the status of Luxembourg, Denmark and Czechoslovakia in your little peace plan. I would suggest a return to 1930 borders on all points.

IC: I ALWAYS take these "fine points" posts with a grain of salt. I think that Stalin's betrayal of the Non-Aggression Pact was probably decisive. What you are referring to is the idea that France could be quickly beaten. Not lightly possible.

True, Gamelin was largely fixated on those ideas of static defense; but his defeatist feelings were recognized as harmful by the Reynaud government even before his untimely death. The aforementioned thinkers who followed him simply did not organize a plan in this fashion.

There is nothing special or extraordinary about the defensive positions taken and the small-scale tank crushes that petered out quickly. Any general line that could hold between the Seine and the Rhine would have worked, although I'll grant you that the Belgian Border was probably one of the best positions possible.

Finally, the third factor is that German Forces were never as well led as the West. That idiot Hitler, when "Fall Gelb" rolled snake eyes responded by assuming personal control over the war--and managing it poorly. I would assume that while the circumstances might have changed, eventually Adolf is going to stick his head where it doesn't belong and he will lose a war.
 
I think that another little discussed issue is the wisdom of the Anglo-French alliance in keeping the majority of their air forces deployed away from Northern France. Because of this their forces had to endure serious air attacks during May 1940, made no easier by the shortage of anti-aircraft guns. However, by July France was able to start committing the units previously held back to defend their factories, for example around Toulouse. By that time, those fighter units had re-equipped with D-520s and the lessons of using looser formations such as the finger four had been learnt. Similarly, the British were able to commit their Spitfires to combat. The introduction of Polish and Czech units was also important. Combined with the tiredness of the Luftwaffe units and the simple fact that pilots who bailed out over French territory who permanently lost, this gave the Anglo-French increasing air superiority over the late summer battles.
 
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