DBWI: France does not invade the Germanies in 1990

OOC: Inspired by a misinterpretation of this thread.

IC: Suppose that, when East Germany was set to be reunited with West Germany, France had been a bit calmer about it, and had not chosen a military solution (or chosen a less severe one) to prevent it. Not sure when the PoD should be, but probably after the creation of East Germany, or at least after that creation became nearly inevitable. Perhaps a less fascistic government in France would have been more cool-headed.

Some things are almost certain: without that error in judgement, they would not have lost Elsaß-Lothringen to the united Germany, nor Normandy and Brittany to the UK. Not sure if they'd still have their overseas colonies, though.
 
OOC: I think this very,very close to ASB. There would have been no real support for this in France for this and even less in the world at large. West Germany would ask for and almost certainly get NATO supprort after NATO kicks out France. After that it turns largely into France vs USA and Germany whcih France doesn have a chance in Hell of winning.
 
OOC: I think this very,very close to ASB. There would have been no real support for this in France for this and even less in the world at large. West Germany would ask for and almost certainly get NATO supprort after NATO kicks out France. After that it turns largely into France vs USA and Germany whcih France doesn have a chance in Hell of winning.

OOC: Although this is probably true, we can't forget that France is a nuclear power. It would be absurd to provoke a war with France, and if France moves I think war is out of the question.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Well, you would have to get rid of the longstanding emnities and suspicion between France and England and France and Germany, which requires an early POD, pre-1900.

Maybe a less aggressive Harold of Sussex in the Derbyshire War of 1679-1711, and that butterflies away the 88 years war in Germany, between 1756 and 1844 (so no conquering of A-L by Bavaria)?
 
OOC: I think with a POD in the 60s or 70s it is possible. If France was more intent on forming its own Bloc.

IC: Perhaps if France hadn't tried to be so revisionist. Every educated person knows the division of Germany was to give the Soviets their share. However, if you listen to France, you would have to think it was their idea. Destroy Germany worse then they did the first time. Unfortunatly, this school of thought was entirely made up by the French leadership in the 70s.

Now, as to how the world would be different, I do believe the French fears were justified. A united Germany would surely seek to regain its former glory. Outright war probably would not happen untill atleast 2020, but I can see Germany supporting the former republics of the USSR and forming an alliance.
 
OOC: I think with a POD in the 60s or 70s it is possible. If France was more intent on forming its own Bloc.

IC: Perhaps if France hadn't tried to be so revisionist. Every educated person knows the division of Germany was to give the Soviets their share. However, if you listen to France, you would have to think it was their idea. Destroy Germany worse then they did the first time. Unfortunatly, this school of thought was entirely made up by the French leadership in the 70s.

Now, as to how the world would be different, I do believe the French fears were justified. A united Germany would surely seek to regain its former glory. Outright war probably would not happen untill atleast 2020, but I can see Germany supporting the former republics of the USSR and forming an alliance.
To be fair, there isn't a lot of difference between the current Confederation of German States and a united Germany. They're a lot closer than the CSA states were to each other, during the American Civil War. Likewise, CGS is slightly bigger in OTL than I think it would be in TTL, unless you think they'd still be able to reclaim what the French are still calling Alsace-Lorraine.

Other than that, your point is well made, and you PoD is later than I thought it would need to be. I was thinking it might have been around 1957, with DeGaulle not dying in that car accident in March. I wonder sometimes, what the French Fifth Republic would have been like, with him around to influence its formation.
 
To be fair, there isn't a lot of difference between the current Confederation of German States and a united Germany. They're a lot closer than the CSA states were to each other, during the American Civil War. Likewise, CGS is slightly bigger in OTL than I think it would be in TTL, unless you think they'd still be able to reclaim what the French are still calling Alsace-Lorraine.

Other than that, your point is well made, and you PoD is later than I thought it would need to be. I was thinking it might have been around 1957, with DeGaulle not dying in that car accident in March. I wonder sometimes, what the French Fifth Republic would have been like, with him around to influence its formation.

I fail to see how a lack of invasion would keep Germany smaller.
 
Things would not got so out of hand if the Poles and Czechs hadn't joined in with France. Perhaps the Soviet coup and subsequent invasion of Poland would not he occurred. I think Germanys restoration of the 1914 borders in the east and cooperation with the USSR in the relocation of ethnic Poles was excessive however.
 
Things would not got so out of hand if the Poles and Czechs hadn't joined in with France. Perhaps the Soviet coup and subsequent invasion of Poland would not he occurred. I think Germanys restoration of the 1914 borders in the east and cooperation with the USSR in the relocation of ethnic Poles was excessive however.

I'm sure German diplomatic efforts would have allowed us to reach that point eventualy.
 
OOC: Apart from the fact that I think that the PoD would have to be in the late 40s, pre-Montan Union which was done precisely to prevent this.... :eek:


IC: I can say, had the French not invaded us, we would not have invaded them in return, not even in 2020! Look at the numbers for one. The French Army in 1990 outnumbered even the unified German Forces by at least 2:1, and it would have taken us at least a good 30 to 40 years to reach parity in numbers, and that suggests that the French don't increase their forces to keep their advantage. Aside from the fact that is disgusts me that once again everyone points at Germany as the bad boy ( however justified that was in the past ) and implies that we have nothing better to do than always plot the start of the next European War! Doesn't anyone realize that we have changed.

OOC: That last sentence was only half in Character.
 
OOC: Inspired by a misinterpretation of this thread.

IC: Suppose that, when East Germany was set to be reunited with West Germany, France had been a bit calmer about it, and had not chosen a military solution (or chosen a less severe one) to prevent it. Not sure when the PoD should be, but probably after the creation of East Germany, or at least after that creation became nearly inevitable. Perhaps a less fascistic government in France would have been more cool-headed.

Some things are almost certain: without that error in judgement, they would not have lost Elsaß-Lothringen to the united Germany, nor Normandy and Brittany to the UK. Not sure if they'd still have their overseas colonies, though.

I feel like I need to take a very different spin on this topic to keep it from going totally ASB.

How about something like:

With the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the apparently obvious reunification of German States underway, the French government begins to hold tense cabinet meetings over a response to the reunification. Its split, roughly 50-50, between those who approve of the reunification, and those who seek pledges and promises from Germany, however, extremists are in the wings.

Germans living in AL, in a fit of nationalist Euphoria, have wild celebrations over the fall of the Berlin Wall. But these incidents are small minority of the population the French Government recognizes that AL is going to be a large problem.

This leads to a French force being moved into Strassbourg and Mulhouse as a security measure. Unfortunately, a small fringe party in France is militantly opposed to Germany's reunification, and they've managed to get general to support their aims. Only a lunatic could possibly claim that this celebration is a anti-French demonstration, but this General and his backers are lunatics. And even more lunatic is Crossing the Rhine into Germany even in the middle of negotiations. German troops originally believed this to be an accident and didn't exchange fire initially, but now a rogue French commander has just steamed into Stuttgart!

France is profoundly humilated, Germany is furious, but the United States, UK, Netherlands and others quickly reach the conclusion that the French Government has very little to do with these instructions and that French General is a hypernationalist wacko, whose force is quickly defeated as France turns against them. After a couple skirmishes, the General and his top staff is sent to Bonn for a trial.
 
OOC: Um, did you not read the OP? The bit about Germany and Britain taking parts of France, as punishment for the invasion? The same sentence which calls Germany 'united'?

OOC: Dyslexia moment. Though you said Britian and France took part of Germany.
 
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