DBWI: France becomes a Republic after the 1870 war

[Johannes Parisiensis]

As you know, in 1870, the Emperor Napoleon III declared the war to Prussia and got beaten and died in exile.

A majoritarily Monarchist assembly reestablished Monarchy in France, in the hands of the descendants of Hugh Capet.

How could France have became a republic in the 1870s (yes, I know, it seems very ASB)?

OOC: This is the first thread I open!

 

[Anaxagoras]

After the experience they had the first time they tried to be a republic, I can't imagine the French wanting to repeat the experience.

 

[Brainbin]

Maybe if Henri V hadn't been assassinated? Apparently he was much more of a hardliner than Philippe VII was. Of course, that could have just been Orleanist propaganda. When you're not the senior line of the House of Bourbon I guess you have to overcompensate. A shame, too, because Philippe VII was a fine King of the French.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

After the experience they had the first time they tried to be a republic, I can't imagine the French wanting to repeat the experience.

Given the Reign of Terror and the 2nd December putsch, the idea of a "Republic" had forever been tainted by anarchy, chaos andcivil war in the French political opinion.

And this is why folks as Gambetta and Clemenceau didn't manage to convince people to get a republic.

 

[ramones1986]

Well, remember how the state flag of the Kingdom of France was accepted because of consensus between Philippe VII and the French Parliament. The Count of Chambord didn't accept the tricolor, and the legislature forced him to abandon his claim, favoring Philippe instead.

Just imagine if the Count of Chambord still insist to use the old white fleur-de-lys flag in order to accept the Crown, there's is a large possibility of a third French Republic. When will this republic last? It's anyone's guest.

Here's the state flag:

OOC:
The Third French Republic lasted for seventy years.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Just imagine if the Count of Chambord still insist to use the old white fleur-de-lys flag in order to accept the Crown, there's is a large possibility of a third French Republic. When will this republic last? It's anyone guest

Given Republic in France always meant anarchy, sedition, (civil) war and mob rule, this republic will last no longer than ten years max.

You can see right now how well are doing Republican Latin America countries.

 

[Derekc2]

Given Republic in France always meant anarchy, sedition, (civil) war and mob rule, this republic will last no longer than ten years max.

You can see right now how well are doing Republican Latin America countries.

On the other hand, the U.S. is an republic and it's one of the great powers.

OOC: I see no reason the U.S. would do any worse ITTL. By 1870 the U.S. was destined to be an great power.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

As you know, in 1870, the Emperor Napoleon III declared the war to Prussia and got beaten and died in exile.

A majoritarily Monarchist assembly reestablished Monarchy in France, in the hands of the descendants of Hugh Capet.

How could France have became a republic in the 1870s (yes, I know, it seems very ASB)?

OOC: This is the first thread I open!

Lord can you imagine?!?! France as a Republic. I'm pretty sure Henri V and Philippe VII would turn in their graves on hearing that. Next thing you'll suggest that the Federal Austrian Empire could fall apart into different nations or, heaven forbid, Communists could come to power. History has proven that Republics, aside form the US of course, are doomed to failure and have no place in modern Europe. Aside from Switzerland of course.

 

[Lindseyman]

If the French monarchy could weather the Army mutiny in 1917 (in the Franco-German War (although some insist on calling it the 2nd Franco-Prussian War)) and the occupation 1940-1944 during the Great European War (although the Dauphin did give a memorable radio broadcast in July 1940 on the BBC and very ably led the Free French ) then no way is France EVER going to be a republic again!

If the Third Republic had been founded in 1870 (and it was a lot closer than some think) the longest that it would have lasted is until the end of the Great European War. However as others have posted it is unlikely to have lasted beyond 1880 before either Napoleon's son would have been crowned Napoleon IV or the Monarchy finally restored.

 

[Francisco Cojuanco]

The Republicans could have made a breakthrough during the fin de siecle with the economic and political crisis (remember that for a brief period it was effectively a military dictatorship. One supported by nearly all the major parties, but a dictatorship nontheless). Unfortunately, it was at precisely that time that they de ided to engage in their pointless anticlerical propaganda (remeber this is the time of the Lourdes Pilgrimage and movement). The problem with the Republicans is they refused to see that modern France wasn't the France of 1789. For a movement that claimed to be progressive, they were horribly stuck in the past. The Republicans had genuine opportunities, which they singularly failed to exploit.

A sidenote on Austria, though, it wasn't a complete survival. Hungary, for instance, separated (though under a different Hapsburg monarch than the Vienna branch).

 

[CaliBoy1990]

As you know, in 1870, the Emperor Napoleon III declared the war to Prussia and got beaten and died in exile.

A majoritarily Monarchist assembly reestablished Monarchy in France, in the hands of the descendants of Hugh Capet.

How could France have became a republic in the 1870s (yes, I know, it seems very ASB)?

OOC: This is the first thread I open!

I'm afraid that France would probably be a lot better off than it is today, to be truthful. Corruption, poverty, and organized crime were all rife in France from then up until the end of the 1970's IOTL, and primarily *because* of the monarchy(not to mention the rise of the Fascist governments in the '20s), or rather, their unwillingness to break the well-connected Mafias, which had, by the 1940s, infiltrated the highest levels of government(this is still a problem today), as well as the laissez-fair idiocy that started in PM Clemenceau's administration in the '20s that lasted until the 1960s. Even today, France is behind virtually every one of the Republican states in Western + Central Europe; only Slovenia has a worse economy. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and Ireland all have better economies than France(Russia might also count, though technically, most of it's actually in Asia), even with the catching up that's been done since the '70s.

And, btw, I'd like to add this: yes, some of the Latin American countries aren't doing so well; look at Colombia and Uruguay. But Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil *are* doing well... And they're all republican, too.

OOC: I edited out the part about Soviet Russia; that actually came about because of an oversight I had made. Apologies for any confusion that may have been caused earlier.

 

[AussieHawker]

Lord can you imagine?!?! France as a Republic. I'm pretty sure Henri V and Philippe VII would turn in their graves on hearing that. Next thing you'll suggest that the Federal Austrian Empire could fall apart into different nations or, heaven forbid, Communists could come to power. History has proven that Republics, aside form the US of course, are doomed to failure and have no place in modern Europe. Aside from Switzerland of course.

I'm afraid that France would probably be a lot better off than it is today, to be truthful. Corruption, poverty, and organized crime were all rife in France from then up until the end of the 1970's IOTL, and primarily *because* of the monarchy(not to mention the rise of the Fascist governments in the '20s), or rather, their unwillingness to break the well-connected Mafias, which had, by the 1940s, infiltrated the highest levels of government(this is still a problem today), as well as the laissez-fair idiocy that started in PM Clemenceau's administration in the '20s that lasted until the 1960s. Even today, France is behind virtually every one of the Republican states in Western + Central Europe; only Slovenia has a worse economy. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and Ireland all have better economies than France(Post-Soviet Russia might also count, though technically, most of it's actually in Asia), even with the catching up that's been done since the '70s.

And, btw, I'd like to add this: yes, some of the Latin American countries aren't doing so well; look at Colombia and Uruguay. But Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil *are* doing well... And they're all republican, too.

OCC
Somebody isn't reading the Other DBWIs properly.

 

[Xgentis]

I'm afraid that France would probably be a lot better off than it is today, to be truthful. Corruption, poverty, and organized crime were all rife in France from then up until the end of the 1970's IOTL, and primarily *because* of the monarchy(not to mention the rise of the Fascist governments in the '20s), or rather, their unwillingness to break the well-connected Mafias, which had, by the 1940s, infiltrated the highest levels of government(this is still a problem today), as well as the laissez-fair idiocy that started in PM Clemenceau's administration in the '20s that lasted until the 1960s. Even today, France is behind virtually every one of the Republican states in Western + Central Europe; only Slovenia has a worse economy. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and Ireland all have better economies than France(Post-Soviet Russia might also count, though technically, most of it's actually in Asia), even with the catching up that's been done since the '70s.

And, btw, I'd like to add this: yes, some of the Latin American countries aren't doing so well; look at Colombia and Uruguay. But Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil *are* doing well... And they're all republican, too.

OOC:It's not the first time you ruin DBWI thread. I'll politely ask you to stop that. If you don't like dbwi don't post in them, don't ruin the fun of others.
Proof of what I am talking about.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=242982

 

[Van555]

OOC:It's not the first time you ruin DBWI thread. I'll politely ask you to stop that. If you don't like dbwi don't post in them, don't ruin the fun of others.
Proof of what I am talking about.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=242982

For reals say what you will about France but its unlikely they would decide to squander all of their potential.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

I'm afraid that France would probably be a lot better off than it is today, to be truthful. Corruption, poverty, and organized crime were all rife in France from then up until the end of the 1970's IOTL, and primarily *because* of the monarchy(not to mention the rise of the Fascist governments in the '20s), or rather, their unwillingness to break the well-connected Mafias, which had, by the 1940s, infiltrated the highest levels of government(this is still a problem today), as well as the laissez-fair idiocy that started in PM Clemenceau's administration in the '20s that lasted until the 1960s. Even today, France is behind virtually every one of the Republican states in Western + Central Europe; only Slovenia has a worse economy. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and Ireland all have better economies than France(Post-Soviet Russia might also count, though technically, most of it's actually in Asia), even with the catching up that's been done since the '70s.

And, btw, I'd like to add this: yes, some of the Latin American countries aren't doing so well; look at Colombia and Uruguay. But Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil *are* doing well... And they're all republican, too.

OK sure the French went through some hard times, but what state hasn't? Whats to say that a Republic would do any better?

And really, France has the third largest economy behind the UK and Germany (and quickly catching up to the Germans) , so I have no clue WHERE you got those numbers. And Finland and Slovenia? Why are you naming states of the Russian and Austrian Empires? Of course their individual economies would be smaller then then an independent nation!

Also what are you smoking?! Soviet Russia? Russia has been a monarchy for the entirety of its existence. And I'm assuming your referring to those Godless heathen Communists/"workers parties" who tried to assassinate Emperor Alexander II and led those riots in the early 1900s? God can anyone imagine them in power ?!?! What a nightmare that would be. And the Brazil has been an Empire sense its independence! Sure from 1889 to 1920s the Emperor Pedro II and Empress Isabel the Liberator were figureheads of a military dictatorship, but that by no means equals a Republic.

 

[CaliBoy1990]

OCC
Somebody isn't reading the Other DBWIs properly.

OOC: Hmm.....well, alright, it does look like I overlooked that particular part about the no Communism(apologies to Emperor Constantine). Thanks for pointing that out; I've since edited the post.

IC: I'd like to wonder, too, how a Republican France would get along with Great Britain. Our world's France and Great Britain are pretty friendly these days, but this wasn't always so even as late as 60 years ago, and even today, the French still have closer ties with the Russian Empire than with Britain. Could there be something that fundamentally changes this, or even reverses it? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Xgentis]

Well France invested heavily in Russia to help modernize it. It is thanks to France that Russia industrialisation started. Even today Russia and France have strong economic ties.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

OOC: Hmm.....well, alright, it does look like I overlooked that particular part about the no Communism(apologies to Emperor Constantine). Thanks for pointing that out; I've since edited the post.

IC: I'd like to wonder, too, how a Republican France would get along with Great Britain. Our world's France and Great Britain are pretty friendly these days, but this wasn't always so even as late as 60 years ago, and even today, the French still have closer ties with the Russian Empire than with Britain. Could there be something that fundamentally changes this, or even reverses it? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Well remember that the marriage of King Edward VIII (at the time Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence) to Princesse Hélène d'Orléans (after her conversion of course) in 1891 helped to get the ball rolling on improving relations. Nothing like an old fashioned marriage alliance to encourage better relations.

 

[Wendell]

What about France building a republic modeled on the United States? Think about it; the penchant for a strong executive is there, and the fixed schedule of elections provides for stabilization. On top of that, the potential for one party to control the legislature and another the executive is a check on possible excesses by one or the other.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

What about France building a republic modeled on the United States? Think about it; the penchant for a strong executive is there, and the fixed schedule of elections provides for stabilization. On top of that, the potential for one party to control the legislature and another the executive is a check on possible excesses by one or the other.

Tried and failed in 1848-1851.