OOC: We never decided, but it looks like they own at least the entirety of California, Nevada, Hawaai, Utah and Idaho, while they own parts of Montana and New Mexico. The rest would have to be determined somehow. Was thinking that they'd logically own at least part of Colorado.OOC: Sorry if I missed something, but what OTL states make up the UPA?
OOC: given the topic of this DBWI, I can see OTL Washington state being owned by the US, instead of being its own entity or owned by the UPA. That, or it could be a territory adminsited by not!UN, which makes it extra fun.OOC: The main reason I ask is because I was wondering if OTL Washington state would be in the USA, UPA, or maybe even Cascadia
OOC: last OOC for now, but I was envisioning something about UN-administered territories all over the border areas, in particular Denver. UN-ownedWashington sounds great.OOC: given the topic of this DBWI, I can see OTL Washington state being owned by the US, instead of being its own entity or owned by the UPA. That, or it could be a territory adminsited by not!UN, which makes it extra fun.
It definitely gave the Congregation of Nationalities* something to do when the war ended and some areas had remained contested: the administration af the Glendive-Denver-Colorado Springs- Roswell Axis wasn't easy, and the less is said about Jackson** the better. At least the CoN administrators ironed out even more kinks from their past experience in South Tyrol and got some training to handle Washington's claim of indipendence indipendence as Cascadia without having it fall under the invasion or influence of either the USA or the UPA (not that it has ever stopped them from trying). Besides, the inhabitants of Denver seem to like their CoN administration.Of course they were unbalanced, how on Earth was the UPA supposed to deal with those incredibly complex borders? I mean, Boudler cut in half? Cheyenne as a Us enclave? That whole mess about the Wagshington state? Were they mad?
Oh yes, and I’m sure that your massive troop buildup on the Arizona-New Mexico and Washington-Oregon borders had absolutely NOTHING to do with our state of extreme readiness, it’s not like we were still in the middle of a civil war or anything, and General Vazesky DEFINETLY deserved to be killed under a white flag for “betraying” the group that was rebelling against the government that the majority of people elected, what a great move from President Halls, so honorable, I’m sure it had nothing to do with his territorial ambitions and demands that America cede New Mexico even though it’s population supported the US. It’s SO “tragic” that the “tyrannical” federal government refused to give it to you and that your attempt to conquer it resulted in America pushing you out of Arizona and Utah.Not to mention that the Us, backstabbing rats they were, were clearly building up to attack again soon, Halls did the right thing and that traitor of general Vazkesky had it coming.
"Massive troop build-up"? What massive troop build-up? You mean trying to get the police corps in Arizona and Oregon in battle shape, in case the US decided to invade first? Does that sound like a military build-up to you?Oh yes, and I’m sure that your massive troop buildup on the Arizona-New Mexico and Washington-Oregon borders had absolutely NOTHING to do with our state of extreme readiness, it’s not like we were still in the middle of a civil war or anything, and General Vazesky DEFINETLY deserved to be killed under a white flag for “betraying” the group that was rebelling against the government that the majority of people elected, what a great move from President Halls, so honorable, I’m sure it had nothing to do with his territorial ambitions and demands that America cede New Mexico even though it’s population supported the US. It’s SO “tragic” that the “tyrannical” federal government refused to give it to you and that your attempt to conquer it resulted in America pushing you out of Arizona and Utah.
Oh yes, the “Police Forces” in full UPA uniform armed with hundreds of thousands of guns with UPA Serial Numbers and which were only claimed to be police forces decades after despite both UPA and US documents and witness accounts from the time contradicting and disproving that. And you had no business being in Arizona regardless since despite hardcore UPA fanatics such as yourself claiming that the Governor invited you in its a well known fact actively acknowledged by your government that you invaded and forcibly occupied Arizona despite its neutrality in the war and then actively forced the governor to declare for you at gunpoint, so you shouldn’t have been there anyway. As for your claims that New Mexico would have rather been under the UPA, do you have any evidence to back that up whatsoever? If they would have rather been under you then they wouldn’t have declared for the Federal Government to begin with, and they wouldn’t have waged such a large scale Guerrilla campaign against your forces during the months were you occupied part of the State. Hell, after the war as part of the peace deal we both withdrew all of our forces from the state and let the UN hold referendums to decide who the contested states (which we both agreed was fair and was conducted by a neutral party) wanted to join and guess who won in New Mexico? It was the U.S, just like in Arizona and Utah. We didn’t contest the results in Washington where you won, but you declared the results in New Mexico and Arizona rigged and invalid and “coincidentally” didn’t make such a claim about the states you won in. Besides, the U.S May have been somewhat oppressive and we have had a lot of problems over the years but the UPA is hardly better and in many ways you guys were actually worse. You can’t just ignore the fact that Michael Halls was a dictator who ruled the UPA for three decades, because he"Massive troop build-up"? What massive troop build-up? You mean trying to get the police corps in Arizona and Oregon in battle shape, in case the US decided to invade first? Does that sound like a military build-up to you?
Or you mean those alleged "tanks disguised as tractors" that were never actually ever found anywhere outside a few blatantly shopped up photos?
Vazesky was a coward and a traitor to the UPA, his defection is exactly why we didn't manage to conquer and had to fight so hard for Arizona and Utah. And the people in New Mexico were definititely more in favour of a non-oppressive, non-delirious government like the UPA's than the US', and any stats on the matter has been manipulated or exxagerated beyond belief.
To be fair to the UPA, their "segregation system" was milder than the US', had become vestigial by the Seventies, and got fully and formally abolished in the Nineties only after that asshat of Watterson tried to ban blacks and latinos from entering his White Peak* resturants; Karl A. Hall did hold free elections in the UPA before taking over from his father (granted after bashing a few rebellious heads in); John Halls Jr. hated his brother enough to try to govern the nation by following the opposite policies followed by Karl, no matter how dumb; a lot of "political dissenters" were outright terrorists; and the UPA did have legitimate grievances over the control of Arizona and Idaho, since both states were split in thier decision on which side to join.Oh yes, the “Police Forces” in full UPA uniform armed with hundreds of thousands of guns with UPA Serial Numbers and which were only claimed to be police forces decades afterwords despite both UPA and US documents and witness accounts from the time contradicting and disproving that. And you had no business being in Arizona regardless since despite hardcore UPA fanatics such as yourself claiming that the govoner invited you in its a well known fact actively acknowledged by your government that you invaded and forcibly occupied Arizona despite its neutrality in the war and then actively forced the governor to declare for you at gunpoint, so you shouldn’t have been there anyway. As for your claims that New Mexico would have rather been under the UPA, do you have any evidence to back that up whatsoever? If they would have rather been under you then they wouldn’t have declared for the Federal Government to begin with, and they wouldn’t have waged such a large scale gurellia campaign against your forces during the months were you occupyied part of the State. Hell, after the war as part of the peace deal we both withdrew all of our forces from the state and let the UN hold referendums to decide who the contested states (which we both agreed was fair and was conducted by a neutral party) wanted to join and guess who won in New Mexico? It was the U.S, just like in Arizona and Utah. We didn’t contest the results in Washingtonl where you won, but you declared the results in New Mexico and Arizona rigged and invalid and “coincidentally” didn’t make such a claim about the states you won in. Besides, the U.S May have been somewhat oppressive and we have had a lot of problems over the years but the UPA is hardly better and in many ways you guys were actually worse. You can’t just ignore the fact that Micheal Halls was a dictator who ruled the UPA for three decades, because his presidency 1. Blatantly went over the term limits of your own constitution, 2. He only retired when he died and then his son took over, 3. You had a blatant secret police force which you used to suppress dissidents which you government has admitted to having used. The U.S May have been oppressive in many ways, but most of those things were either necessary measures in Responce to your rebellion, things you were equally guilty off (you maintained segregation for almost as long as we did but nobody cared because you were rich and were friends with Japan) or were things that started long after your rebellion. Hell, the only reason your even considered a democracy is because President John Halls, the third Halls President in a row, was overthrown in a coup in 1984 and your new government decided to reimplement fair elections and condem the previous government well revealing the many bad things you did like the multi generational prison camps, the secret police and suppression of political dissidents, and the blatant imperialism you maintained until you dropped your claims on Arizona, Utah, and New Mexico under the new government. The U.S was just as bad in many ways but the UPa doesn’t have the moral high ground here and your blatantly ignoring facts that don’t support your opinion or making statements with no evidence to support your viewpoint, well ignoring the fact that the civil war you caused litterially killed millions.
IC: Oh, we forgetting about the whole thing about the "Jefferson Brigades" are we? We denying history here? 90% of your post is pure pig slop, baseless US propaganda a ton of bullshit about the doing of John Halls Seniro's great governing of the nation. He was elected four times in a row, even when he wasn't even a candidate in the elections! What are yougoing to do about that, elect what you put on an electoral list? Of course not!Oh yes, the “Police Forces” in full UPA uniform armed with hundreds of thousands of guns with UPA Serial Numbers and which were only claimed to be police forces decades afterwords despite both UPA and US documents and witness accounts from the time contradicting and disproving that. And you had no business being in Arizona regardless since despite hardcore UPA fanatics such as yourself claiming that the govoner invited you in its a well known fact actively acknowledged by your government that you invaded and forcibly occupied Arizona despite its neutrality in the war and then actively forced the governor to declare for you at gunpoint, so you shouldn’t have been there anyway. As for your claims that New Mexico would have rather been under the UPA, do you have any evidence to back that up whatsoever? If they would have rather been under you then they wouldn’t have declared for the Federal Government to begin with, and they wouldn’t have waged such a large scale gurellia campaign against your forces during the months were you occupyied part of the State. Hell, after the war as part of the peace deal we both withdrew all of our forces from the state and let the UN hold referendums to decide who the contested states (which we both agreed was fair and was conducted by a neutral party) wanted to join and guess who won in New Mexico? It was the U.S, just like in Arizona and Utah. We didn’t contest the results in Washingtonl where you won, but you declared the results in New Mexico and Arizona rigged and invalid and “coincidentally” didn’t make such a claim about the states you won in. Besides, the U.S May have been somewhat oppressive and we have had a lot of problems over the years but the UPA is hardly better and in many ways you guys were actually worse. You can’t just ignore the fact that Micheal Halls was a dictator who ruled the UPA for three decades, because his presidency 1. Blatantly went over the term limits of your own constitution, 2. He only retired when he died and then his son took over, 3. You had a blatant secret police force which you used to suppress dissidents which you government has admitted to having used. The U.S May have been oppressive in many ways, but most of those things were either necessary measures in Responce to your rebellion, things you were equally guilty off (you maintained segregation for almost as long as we did but nobody cared because you were rich and were friends with Japan) or were things that started long after your rebellion. Hell, the only reason your even considered a democracy is because President John Halls, the third Halls President in a row, was overthrown in a coup in 1984 and your new government decided to reimplement fair elections and condem the previous government well revealing the many bad things you did like the multi generational prison camps, the secret police and suppression of political dissidents, and the blatant imperialism you maintained until you dropped your claims on Arizona, Utah, and New Mexico under the new government. The U.S was just as bad in many ways but the UPa doesn’t have the moral high ground here and your blatantly ignoring facts that don’t support your opinion or making statements with no evidence to support your viewpoint, well ignoring the fact that the civil war you caused litterially killed millions.
Besides, since when does declaring your support for the federal government as soon as your rebellion is announced count as “defecting” or betrayal? Being from California doesn’t make you part of the UPA when you haven’t lived there since you were a kid over 20 years before the UPA seceded, it was under the federal government at the time, and he never supported you to begin with. And even if he had been a traitor, that doesn’t justify murdering him under a flag of truce, an action I noticed you didn’t mention or try justify despite me specifically brining it up.
Oh yes, calling names, so mature, great way to reinforce your point. And I never denied the Jefferson Brigades, I specifically acknowledged that the U.S committed a number of atrocities, I was pointing out that the UPA was just as bad and equally guilty of atrocities, well you seem to be intent on completely demonizing an entire country based on the actions of a few and denying that the UPA ever did anything wrong. Regardless, I’m not going to get into this argument, since you are clearly extremely biased and arguing with you obviously won’t get me anywhere, so I’m just going to stop this argument here and ignore any responses from here on out. (Also really, how was he elected when he wasn’t a candidate, that violates your nations constitution itself, and thank you for proving my point about UPA imperialism).IC: Oh, we forgetting about the whole thing about the "Jefferson Brigades" are we? We denying history here? 90% of your post is pure pig slop, baseless US propaganda a ton of bullshit about the doing of John Halls Seniro's great governing of the nation. He was elected four times in a row, even when he wasn't even a candidate in the elections! What are yougoing to do about that, elect what you put on an electoral list? Of course not!
And all those states will want to get in the UPA, we haven't leinquished jack squat, we just stopped pushing and we're waiting for the day your country will let its guard down again, like you are won't to do, you oppressive Neoknownothing shill.
Well, they haven't really "prolonged the war". Their intervention came fairly late and basically made sure that the armistice could stick for more than one month from either side.Anyway, does anyone else think that the international interventions in the civil war might have contributed negatively to dragging on the war? (Specifically the Russian and Japanese interventions). And how they resulted in Hawaii and Alaska as new countries becoming so economicly and politically dominated by those countries.
Well, they haven't really "prolonged the war". Their intervention came fairly late and basically made sure that the armistice could stick for more than one month from either side.
Alaska is Russia at this point. There's going to be a referendum on the possibility of them joining as a SSR inside the USSR, joing Russia's SSR, join the Warsaw Pact, or stay as-is, and the second option is projected to win.
Hawaii... it's not even part if the Asian-Pacific Union. They've refused to. You'd think they would've been persuaded to join forever ago if they had been under Japan's thumb.