What would happen to Germany, Austro-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria in a world where the Entente wins the war?
DBWI: Fate of Central Powers in an Entente victory world?
- Thread starter The Federalist
- Start date
Bright day
Well, there would most likely be no WW2, what with one side gaining victory. The French would crush Germany and de-industrialize it and they would take Alsase-Lorrain twenty years early.
Ottoman empire would probably survive the peace the best, they might lose some Levantine territory, but that would be it.
Austria-Hungary would probably lose Bosnia and Herzegovina to .
Well, there would most likely be no WW2, what with one side gaining victory. The French would crush Germany and de-industrialize it and they would take Alsase-Lorrain twenty years early.
Ottoman empire would probably survive the peace the best, they might lose some Levantine territory, but that would be it.
Austria-Hungary would probably lose Bosnia and Herzegovina to .
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Germany:
France and Belgium divide the German territory west of the Rhine between them. Russia takes Baltic Prussia, Posen, and Upper Silesia and unites them to Congress Poland. The northern half of Schleswig goes to Denmark. France gets Kamerun and Togoland. South-West Africa passes to the dominion of South Africa. Britain and Portugal divide East Africa between them, with the British taking most of it. Qiaochow Bay and all German interests in China pass to Japan. The German Pacific territories are divided between Japan and Australia.
A-H:
Galicia and northern Bukovina are lost to Russia (part of Galicia joining Congress Poland). Romania takes Transylvania, some areas north and west of it, southern Bukovina and 2/3 of the Banat. Italy takes the Trentino, Gorizia, Trieste, Istria, and part of Dalmatia. Montenegro gets the Mouths of Cattaro and half of Herzegovina. Croatia-Slavonia, Fiume, southern Baranya, and what remains of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Dalmatia and the Vojvodina become part of Yugoslavia. The Czech lands and rump Hungary become independent, with the Czechs receiving some of the Slovak-inhabited areas of northern Hungary. Japan gets all the A-H concession in Tientsin.
Turkey:
Russia takes the Straits (though they are to be demilitarized) and northeast Anatolia. Britain takes Mesopotamia, Syria south of Damascus (with a stretch of desert connecing them), Jaffa, and Hasa. 2 independent states are created between the Russian and British gains, one Armenian and one Kurdish. Greece gets the Aegean shore of Asia Minor and Turkish Thrace west of the Midia-Enos line. The rest of Syria (including Lebanon) and Cilicia go to France. Egypt becomes an independent sultanate under British protection. Palestine becomes an Anglo-Franco-Russian condominium. What's left of the Ottoman Empire is divided into spheres of influence by Russia (the Black Sea coast and Sivas), France (south of Sivas), Italy (the coast between the French and Greek gains and Konya), and Greece (Bursa and Afyon).
Bulgaria:
The Aegean coastline is given to Greece while the rest joins Yugoslavia.
Other changes:
Albania loses territory to Yugoslavia (the northeast), Montenegro (Scutari), Greece (Northern Epirus), and Italy (the Bay of Valona). The rest of it becomes an Italian protectorate. Cyprus and the Dodecanese are rewarded to Greece by its allies. Belgium gets Luxembourg. The "Yugoslavia" I mentioned is a Serb-dominated South Slavic federation with its capital at Belgrade and the Karageorgevic family on the throne.
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Rockingham
Banned
Well, here it is. Not to sure about the accuracy of the ME, as it wasn't quite lined out(ie the fate of most of Transjordan(either Arabian or Palestian), Ankara, the borders of Aremnia and "NE Anatolia, OTL Saudi Arabia, whether Kurdistan included Iraqi Kurdistan).
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
It's inluded in "Syria south of Damascus". BTW, Jaffa should not be connected to it, the British would just get the port and its hinterland.
The central portion of Anatolia would be outside any sphere of influence.
As I mentioned before, the British would ask for Hasa (the Persian Gulf coast of Saudi Arabia). This should be quite interesting, considering the fact that the Saudis controlled it. I forgot to say that Hejaz should be an independent Arab kingdom.
A very good map, just 3 observations (that's very little from someone like me):
1) The Czech gain in northern Hungary should be smaller, a third or half of that. There would be a Russo-Hungarian border.
2) East Prussia would go to Russia.
3) The Italian gains in Dalmatia should not be contiguous with Italy itself.
(There are actually a few more details, but they're either minor or unrelated to the subject.)
Potential developments after the Entente victory:
1) Montenegro might join Yugoslavia through a personal union.
2) An Anglo-Saudi war over Hasa is likely. Hejaz might get involved.
3) Independent Austria will want to join Germany, which the Entente will obviously oppose.
4) The Russian democratic movement will not go away, and the czar will now have to face stronger demands for Polish autonomy.
5) The Great Game will soon be back.
6) The US-Japanese rivalry might lead to war.
7) Not a development but a question: What will happen to the civil war in Mexico now that German influence has been completely eliminated? Could it develop into a new battlefield for American and Japanese influences? Might the United States annex Lower California?
8) Portugal's participation on the winning side might lead to the survival of the republic.
9) It was with the help of a lot of US and German aid that China moved beyond the warlord age. One of these sources has now been dried up.
10) Expect a 3-way rivalry between Italy, Greece and Yugoslavia.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
OOC: Before WWI, the geographic region of Syria included, roughly speaking, the current country without the area east of the Euphrates, Lebanon, Hatay, and the larger Mandate Palestine without the southern desert. The arrangement of French and British gains led to the current definition of Syria, but this would make no sense coming from a TL where the Ottomans kept those territories. Here's a map showing what someone from this TL would understand as Syria:
http://www.maproom.org/00/03/present.php?m=0049
The post-victory Russian borders seem unlikely IMO. Also, why isn't all of German Kamerun granted to France?
(OOC: Yes, I know this is a double-blind.)
Perhaps the British forces in Nigeria grabed a bit, and kept it?...
Germany- Based on Rosa Luxembourg's 1923 Communist Rebellion I am wondering if a Communist /Socialist state based around Leipzig or Gdansk would certainly be possible.
Austria Hungary- Based on the 1945, 1976, and 1991 rebellions, I am surprised that there isn't a state of Dalmatia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, et al. I could see this area as a major flash point for violence....
Ottoman Empire- Didn't the Zionists have a plan for a "unified Zionist homeland" c. 1918? I know they attempted something in 1948 and again in 1974 when Meir Kahane attempted to create a state in Jerusalem. I know it is certainly in the realm of ASB-territory, apparently it was quite popular in Great Britain and the United States....
Russia- How did the Baltic states get annexed into Russia? Wouldn't Germany, France or Great Britain have made a stink about it? Also, wouldn't there be a Ukrainian nationalist state? They certainly suffered under the Czar from 1936-1945....
Austria Hungary- Based on the 1945, 1976, and 1991 rebellions, I am surprised that there isn't a state of Dalmatia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, et al. I could see this area as a major flash point for violence....
Ottoman Empire- Didn't the Zionists have a plan for a "unified Zionist homeland" c. 1918? I know they attempted something in 1948 and again in 1974 when Meir Kahane attempted to create a state in Jerusalem. I know it is certainly in the realm of ASB-territory, apparently it was quite popular in Great Britain and the United States....
Russia- How did the Baltic states get annexed into Russia? Wouldn't Germany, France or Great Britain have made a stink about it? Also, wouldn't there be a Ukrainian nationalist state? They certainly suffered under the Czar from 1936-1945....
Not sure how long that would last... Gdansk is too close to Russia...
Leipzig might last a bit longer, though...
That's true...
I'd say that the Uganda plan would have been better...
I guess that the Baltic States might not be taken from Russia at all ITTL...
The Ukrainians might get squashed by Tsarist troops if they tried to revolt in a TL where Russia is on the winning side...
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
THIS IS BETTER
OOC: I find the way it parallels the current Egyptian-Israeli border suspicious to say the least - not to mention the very fact that Syria would extend to the Red Sea. And did the Hashemite Syrian state even declare its borders? I think I'll put more trust in the map that I know was made before the war.
Why would Denmark be compensated, or are we to assume that it was not neutral in the scenario presented?
(OOC: Yes, I know, neutral Denmark did gain at the expense of Germany following the First World War IOTL)
That seems improbable. Why dissolve Bulgaria entirely? Maybe they'd try to unite the whole place into a strong Yugoslav state that included Montenegro with a small Hungary and large Romania as neighbors. I wonder also of the Czech and Slovak lands could have been attached to this hypothetical Yugoslavia too.
I suspect that the Americans might have a different idea for Palestine, assuming that they are involved in the negotiations.
Interesting. As I said above, I'm not sure of the likelihood og Bulgaria being absorbed into a Serb-dominated state, although, it would counterbalance the Croats. Also, as much as the Greek irridentists wanted that land by the coast, if I recall correctly, there lived in the area many non-Greeeks, and Greece controlling that area might cause some problems.
Why exactly is Belgium to get Luxembourg?
Well, another idea is Slovakia and Bohemia as independent states. If anything, the Bohemian student riots of 1968 and 1991 have a soft spot in this pseudo-socialist's heart.
Then again, it has always been the desire of most Zionists to have the homeland of the Jewish people near the holy city of Jerusalem. Apparently that was one of the reasons for the 2004 London and 2001 Brussels bombings by the Kach guerillas. Then again I have always wondered why the British and French would back such a strange plan against the native Palestianians and Syrians....
Well considering the grief that the Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians gave the Russians with the border conflicts in 1953, 1976, and 1991, I am having a hard time picturing that. I rerad one study that the Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians had more firearms per capita than any industrialized nation, with the possible exception of Finland because of their fear of Russian military takeover...
As for the Ukraine, with the vast economic power of its grain supply and oil fields, it would be hard for nations such as Germany, the United States, Japan, or even Great Britain to pass up the chance to exploit such a situation. Just remember the German "police actions" in the region in 1936-1939 to help the nationalists....
Rockingham
Banned
Luxembourg allowed German troops to pass through their territory OTL, didn't they, so why not in a CP defeated TL? In any case, Belgium would want to be compensated by....yes their shown to have parts of the Rhineland as well, but is that really enough? I suppose they could alway take parts of German East Africa and/or Togo.....Why exactly is Belgium to get Luxembourg?
~The Doctor~
Honestly, why do you people always think that the Central Powers would fare so badly?
In 1918, after Italy and Russia exited the war, the Allies were woefully outnumbered. The German Spring Offensive all but crushed the surviving Allied troops on the Western Front. What's the POD? That Wilson somehow manages to bring the US into the war? Dream on.
In 1918, after Italy and Russia exited the war, the Allies were woefully outnumbered. The German Spring Offensive all but crushed the surviving Allied troops on the Western Front. What's the POD? That Wilson somehow manages to bring the US into the war? Dream on.