DBWI: Fascist Germany, Communist Russia

They would both collapse. The Russians didn't have the economy or social structure to allow communism along the lines of Marx, while Germany has always been made up of over a dozen, at the very least, groups and states yelling at each other. What would unify them? A desire to spread west and south to regain all the lands of the former HRE? Well, besides for the Kingdom of Four Sicilies. I imagine the Germans would like Rome at their southern border as a sign of nostalgia. Though their would need to be a lot more cardinals from Germany.
 
They would both collapse. The Russians didn't have the economy or social structure to allow communism along the lines of Marx, while Germany has always been made up of over a dozen, at the very least, groups and states yelling at each other. What would unify them? A desire to spread west and south to regain all the lands of the former HRE? Well, besides for the Kingdom of Four Sicilies. I imagine the Germans would like Rome at their southern border as a sign of nostalgia. Though their would need to be a lot more cardinals from Germany.

I definitely agree about Russian communism - the only reason people see it as a viable possibility that early on is because the Bolsheviks never got the chance to try and put their ideas into practice. A fascist Germany is more plausible, although it would be very different to the Russian form - there probably wouldn't be nearly as much emphasis on religion (no 'Orthodox Adoration of the Leader' or anything), what with Germany being split between Catholics and Protestants. As for a southern border at Rome, that would make sense historically (a Hohenstaufen-centred mythology sounds realistic), but wouldn't necessarily work if Italy was fascist as well - or would Mussolini be butterflied away?
 

samcster94

Banned
I definitely agree about Russian communism - the only reason people see it as a viable possibility that early on is because the Bolsheviks never got the chance to try and put their ideas into practice. A fascist Germany is more plausible, although it would be very different to the Russian form - there probably wouldn't be nearly as much emphasis on religion (no 'Orthodox Adoration of the Leader' or anything), what with Germany being split between Catholics and Protestants. As for a southern border at Rome, that would make sense historically (a Hohenstaufen-centred mythology sounds realistic), but wouldn't necessarily work if Italy was fascist as well - or would Mussolini be butterflied away?
The Bolsheviks had more chance than you think, they did pull off a failed revolution in 1905 and, although the Tsar won, it did change Russia and was one of the reasons that led to Russian Fascism being born.
 
The Bolsheviks had more chance than you think, they did pull off a failed revolution in 1905 and, although the Tsar won, it did change Russia and was one of the reasons that led to Russian Fascism being born.

There's a chance that they could have won the Civil War, yes - but what would they have done then? Russia simply wasn't suited for communism, especially along the Luxemburgist model; they'd have had to virtually invent a whole new ideology with occasional references to Marx to keep the intellectuals happy. Such a state would never be able to survive for long, since much of Russia's always been extremely reactionary - anything as radical as what the Bolsheviks suggested or would have ended up doing would be utterly untenable.
 

samcster94

Banned
There's a chance that they could have won the Civil War, yes - but what would they have done then? Russia simply wasn't suited for communism, especially along the Luxemburgist model; they'd have had to virtually invent a whole new ideology with occasional references to Marx to keep the intellectuals happy. Such a state would never be able to survive for long, since much of Russia's always been extremely reactionary - anything as radical as what the Bolsheviks suggested or would have ended up doing would be utterly untenable.
I am well aware about Russia being reactionary, but that era was radical by Russian terms. Most likely, they'd have gone with a strongman, a very Russian form of governance, anyway. I do think that replacing the Orthodox Church with atheism seems nearly impossible to me though.
 
I am well aware about Russia being reactionary, but that era was radical by Russian terms. Most likely, they'd have gone with a strongman, a very Russian form of governance, anyway. I do think that replacing the Orthodox Church with atheism seems nearly impossible to me though.
Well, the hypothetical communist regime might adopt a form of "liberation theology" where Christ is viewed as a proto-communist to appeal to the religious peasantry and workers.
 
I am well aware about Russia being reactionary, but that era was radical by Russian terms. Most likely, they'd have gone with a strongman, a very Russian form of governance, anyway. I do think that replacing the Orthodox Church with atheism seems nearly impossible to me though.

Presumably, Lenin would have tried to become this strongman - his ideas on 'democratic centralism' would certainly seem to suggest this, what with effectively banning anyone from deviating from the government line once a policy had begun. The trouble with strongman-centred communism is that, when the strongman dies, things get quite unclear - especially if they've been putting their own beliefs forwards as official theory. The example of Hungary demonstrates this quite well - once Béla Kun died, civil war broke out within six months over which Party member was the most 'Kunist'. Whatever your opinions on Luxemburg, she at least recognised this, and so allowed subtly different forms of communist ideology to compete at the higher echelons of the party, as well as actually designating a successor.

Well, the hypothetical communist regime might adopt a form of "liberation theology" where Christ is viewed as a proto-communist to appeal to the religious peasantry and workers.

That's a very interesting idea - sort of like what Ethiopia did in the 1980s, with the main functions of the Church being another method of wealth redistribution and a conduit for teaching Marxist-Atnafist ideology to the peasants?
 
Top