DBWI explain this map

charlemagneempiremap1.jpg


First who is charlemagne and who are the muslims?
In this AH that i copied this from it said something about this being a Christian frankish empire. I found it immpossible as with both julians reforms and the persecusion of mystery cults such as manichaeism and christianity by Theodosius 1 it couldnt have spread to the german tribes. Also what are the anglo saxons doing in the british isles. As far as history was concerned they took over Gaul and the Franks took over the british isles right pls help me with this map. Also what is the papal states and who are the lombards. I thought the Huns took over Italy?
 
Weren't the Papals one of those another of those western Germanic tribes, like the Vandals? Not sure how they seem to have taken over Rome, though.
 
Christianity was fairly popular in Iberia and Italy during the Roman Empire IIRC—nothing like its dominance in the East or in Britain, of course, but in a world without the persecutions of Theodosius and his successors I could see it becoming the dominant faith a century or two earlier than IOTL.

The Germans converting is weird, though—they fiercely held to their traditional faiths in the Roman lands they conquered or else syncretized with the Olympic pantheon IOTL. This really only had lasting effects in Illyria and Gallia, though—everywhere else eventually overthrew the Germans and instated Christianity thanks to the persistence of Constantinople.

As for the “Papal States,” I can’t help but wonder if it’s some strange reference to the Bishop of Rome, who was sometimes called Papa or Father by locals before the Expansion of the Patriarchates in 697.
 
Weird. Muslim bears a strange similarity to the modern Semitic term “Meselohim,” a term for eunuch Jewish priests. Any chance this is a derivative of that?
In Arabic, there is the word "moslem", which means "one who submits." It is quite possible that we are talking about some kind of Arab faith, like Manichaeans or Jews.
Christianity was fairly popular in Iberia and Italy during the Roman Empire IIRC

Maybe the Arabs had their Great Migration of Nations? During his time, the arba form of monotheism appeared, and various Semitic peoples settled in vast territories. In Ieberia, however, there was no strong state, which allowed the bandits and mercenaries to steambat the local peoples. However, most likely a new faith came through Africa, and the bulk of the settlers - already Berbers. Note that the map shows the plural - most likely there is no unity between them. In the end, we get a bunch of local chiefdoms, where the Arabs play the role of spiritual leaders, the military aristocracy is most likely composed of Mauritanians, and the overwhelming majority of the population are Roman-speaking Christians.
 
In Arabic, there is the word "moslem", which means "one who submits." It is quite possible that we are talking about some kind of Arab faith, like Manichaeans or Jews.


Maybe the Arabs had their Great Migration of Nations? During his time, the arba form of monotheism appeared, and various Semitic peoples settled in vast territories. In Ieberia, however, there was no strong state, which allowed the bandits and mercenaries to steambat the local peoples. However, most likely a new faith came through Africa, and the bulk of the settlers - already Berbers. Note that the map shows the plural - most likely there is no unity between them. In the end, we get a bunch of local chiefdoms, where the Arabs play the role of spiritual leaders, the military aristocracy is most likely composed of Mauritanians, and the overwhelming majority of the population are Roman-speaking Christians.

Interesting, but I'm not sure a new faith is necessary - if "Muslims" does really mean "those who submit" in some Arab language, maybe these are just vassals or foederati of this Arab empire. Seems a little odd that they would be in Hispania, at the farthest corner of the Mediterranean from the Arabian peninsula, though...

Edit: Just occurred to me - maybe they came by sea? Arabs form an important mercantile caste in Hindia, and had trading colonies all down the Erythrean coast. Is it too early for them to have circumnavigated Africa? What year is this map supposed to be, anyway?
 
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I think i understand this map. So in 363 apparently Julian was killed in Persia(which btw is totally ASB) then somehow the roman empire when the west fell the Byzantines didnt take over their persian vassal state(again ASB) Then i think that the persecute Manichaes from persia rome and china fled to arabia and Muslim is some reformed version of manichaeism?
 
Edit: Just occurred to me - maybe they came by sea? Arabs form an important mercantile caste in Hindia, and had trading colonies all down the Erythrean coast. Is it too early for them to have circumnavigated Africa? What year is this map supposed to be, anyway?
I think that there was an invasion of Arabs in North Africa. They already live west of the Nile.
 
Christianity was fairly popular in Iberia and Italy during the Roman Empire IIRC—nothing like its dominance in the East or in Britain, of course, but in a world without the persecutions of Theodosius and his successors I could see it becoming the dominant faith a century or two earlier than IOTL.

The Germans converting is weird, though—they fiercely held to their traditional faiths in the Roman lands they conquered or else syncretized with the Olympic pantheon IOTL. This really only had lasting effects in Illyria and Gallia, though—everywhere else eventually overthrew the Germans and instated Christianity thanks to the persistence of Constantinople.

As for the “Papal States,” I can’t help but wonder if it’s some strange reference to the Bishop of Rome, who was sometimes called Papa or Father by locals before the Expansion of the Patriarchates in 697.

Interesting. However, I notice it's papal states - a plural. My wild guess is, therefore, that "Papal States" refers to some form of coalition or confederation of several smaller independent (tribal?) polities, each one lead by its own bishop or "papa". The papa's might be figurehead religious leaders or perhaps warlords or hereditary tribal leaders who've also assumed a religious function.
Perhaps some Romans or even Germans, or whoever lived in that area at that time, converts to this "exotic" minority religion for political reasons - to symbolise their difference with the Lombards (whoever they are) or Spoleto or to legitimize their non-absorption into these realms? Christianity and Constantinople are far away, so no threat to their autonomy.
 
Interesting. However, I notice it's papal states - a plural. My wild guess is, therefore, that "Papal States" refers to some form of coalition or confederation of several smaller independent (tribal?) polities, each one lead by its own bishop or "papa". The papa's might be figurehead religious leaders or perhaps warlords or hereditary tribal leaders who've also assumed a religious function.
Perhaps some Romans or even Germans, or whoever lived in that area at that time, converts to this "exotic" minority religion for political reasons - to symbolise their difference with the Lombards (whoever they are) or Spoleto or to legitimize their non-absorption into these realms? Christianity and Constantinople are far away, so no threat to their autonomy.

Given OTL German tribalism and religious pluralism that seems very plausible.

As for the Lombards, I think one of the tribes that the Gepids destroyed on their way into Illyria was called the Lombardii. Maybe they just changed the outcome of some battles? Great Migration era stuff was flip a coin to change history a lot of the time...

Lastly, how long could such a weak situation hold out? The Greeks were always chomping at the bit for Southern Italy—how would they not conquer it all? Maybe offscreen there’s a giant Persian blob...
 
The Germans converting is weird, though—they fiercely held to their traditional faiths in the Roman lands they conquered or else syncretized with the Olympic pantheon IOTL. This really only had lasting effects in Illyria and Gallia, though—everywhere else eventually overthrew the Germans and instated Christianity thanks to the persistence of Constantinople.

Maybe it wasn't a complete conversion? Like, maybe they mixed Christianity with tribal practices? Maybe like adding aspects of Christianity into their pantheons..
 
I believe they likely converted to some obscure branch of Christianity to keep their independence. Nestorianism or Arianism spring to mind. It seems likely that OTL the Germans kept their ancestral religions at least as much for the separation it gave as for tradition. Perhaps Charlemagne's Empire is really a large tribal confederation with a strongman- Charlemagne, (Carolus Magnus?) as its leader. It seems unlikely to be a stable or long-lasting polity.
 
So, Gaul has apparently been united under the rule of this mysterious Charlemagne which seems highly implausible to me - I just don't see Celtica, Aquitania, Belgica and Narbonnensis in one polity, especially given their religious/linguistic differences as we know them. Or maybe those differences don't exist but then we are really talking about butterflies. (I notice that the Despotate of Helvetia is not on the map at all.)

Also, in Britannia there is some group called the Anglo-Saxons. Are these some kind of Saxon exiles? What happened to the Pictish Empire?
 
Interesting, but I'm not sure a new faith is necessary - if "Muslims" does really mean "those who submit" in some Arab language, maybe these are just vassals or foederati of this Arab empire. Seems a little odd that they would be in Hispania, at the farthest corner of the Mediterranean from the Arabian peninsula, though...

It also could be related to "Mosul" indicating that the initial group came from that region and then grew up in a process of migration. Them ending up in Hispania should not be such a big surprise: there were major migrations before and after.
 
It also could be related to "Mosul" indicating that the initial group came from that region and then grew up in a process of migration. Them ending up in Hispania should not be such a big surprise: there were major migrations before and after.

It could be that they’re related to the Phoenicians. The purple dye that the Phoenicians used came from a type of mussel, so maybe they’re “Musselmen” which became Muslim.
 
I also dont know what happened if this is the 900s shouldn't most of Gaul and Saxony be occupied by the Viking empire of the Danelands
 
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