DBWI: Explain this map of Europe.

[Chercha]

What I really don't understand is that territory in Southern Italy they have, I can see invasion or soft power in the North, but the South is utterly confusing me, and that's saying a lot!

On further look Denmark also seems to have territory in the empire. Ugh, my head is spinning trying to figure out this monstrosity. What kind of empire has foreign powers controlling a sizable chunk of its territory?

It is illogical. The only explanation that is likely in the slightest is that somehow the HRE is seen as the successor of Rome; foreign powers leave the imperial territory they conquer in the empire because only then can they themselves be elegible for the position of Roman emperor, presumably the most prestigious title in Europe.

As for Southern Italy, perhaps France helped it revolt from the Christian radicals in the Papal States and in return they elected a second son from France as king? Though that would imply a much greater degree of feudalism and monarchism than IOTL.

 

[Lord Okkirke]

I was looking through random ATL maps when this one struck my eye. I couldn't find much of a description, though apparently in this TL Christianity spread outside of Judea and became the primary faith of Rome.

By the way, this is labelled as being the continent in "1500 AD", or 1500 years after Jesus of Nazareth was born, to give you an idea of when this is.

Any ideas as to exactly what happened, other than that?

It Looks like the French Invasion in 1494 (of Italy) was sucessfull and allowed the French to take Control of a large part of the Regnum Italiae.
And somehow the Union of Kalmar was renamed Denmark.

Kingdom of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For a historical map from 1470 see the following link or the Attachment

15. Jahrhundert – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

What do they mean by "Teutonic Prussia", by the way? The Prussians are Baltic, not Germanic. Did the Teutons decide to migrate east instead of south?

It's called Teutonic Prussia because it's the Part Prussia Controled by the "Teutonic Order" (Deutschritter Orden) though I am wondering why the Terretory marked as Livonia isn't under their Control.

(1)This "Ottoman" Empire seems to be some kind of Eastern Roman dynasty, I assume.

(2)Though why Venice seems to be strong enough to hold Crete and Cyprus, I don't know.

(3)This "Holy Roman Empire" is very confusing. Why is it so massively decentralised? I don't recall Germania ever being this messy.

(4)And who are these "White Sheep" people in Mesopotamia? Is that translated from their native name?

1.) This Looks somewhat like the historical Ottoman Empire but their borders are different (both in Europe and the middle East)
2.) Looks About Right to me. Venice was a Major Seapower for a Long time.
3.) That what central Germany looked like until Napoleon came through in 1800 something.
4.) I have no idea but they meight be the "Kara Koyunlu"

I'm guessing that Rome proper was conquered and annexed away by some foreign power, considering it's not a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Maybe a Berber invasion from the south?

Historicly Rome (and the Papal States) claimed their independant About this time from the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation(to use the Holy Roman Empires full name).

 

[Hurt69420]

I was looking through random ATL maps when this one struck my eye. I couldn't find much of a description, though apparently in this TL Christianity spread outside of Judea and became the primary faith of Rome.

Between the pagan Lithuania wank and the Roman remnant in Germania of all places, it's hard to take this map seriously. Is the border gore in the Roman Empire meant to show administrative divisions?

 

[The Virginia Unionist]

How do we know Lithuania is pagan?

 

[Gokbay]

It Looks like the French Invasion in 1494 (of Italy) was sucessfull and allowed the French to take Control of a large part of the Regnum Italiae.
And somehow the Union of Kalmar was renamed Denmark.

Kingdom of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For a historical map from 1470 see the following link or the Attachment

15. Jahrhundert – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

It's called Teutonic Prussia because it's the Part Prussia Controled by the "Teutonic Order" (Deutschritter Orden) though I am wondering why the Terretory marked as Livonia isn't under their Control.


1.) This Looks somewhat like the historical Ottoman Empire but their borders are different (both in Europe and the middle East)
2.) Looks About Right to me. Venice was a Major Seapower for a Long time.
3.) That what central Germany looked like until Napoleon came through in 1800 something.
4.) I have no idea but they meight be the "Kara Koyunlu"


Historicly Rome (and the Papal States) claimed their independant About this time from the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation(to use the Holy Roman Empires full name).

OOC: You don't know how DBWIs work do you? This is in fact an OTL map. Kalmar Union as Denmark and showing Ottoman vassals as Ottoman territory is just simplification. Also FYI White Sheep is Aq Koyunlu. Kara Koyunlu would be Black Sheep.

 

[Etruscan-enthusiast35]

Perhaps this HRE isn't really an Empire in the traditional sense, but more of some governing body similar to the *Insert this realities EU equivalent here* A governing body acting as an intermediary between these various Germanic states while they remain independent. As for the Holy and Roman parts, my guess is that this body might have started as something akin to a counsel of priests for whatever faith the Germanic's follow, and it was handed more power over time. as for the Roman, maybe this Hapsburg state was founded by a Roman general of some kind who was able to hold heavy sway over the Germanic states.

 

[Gwyain]

I'm wondering what the threshold the map uses to define small states in this empire, some of the entities that are depicted look mighty small already, and if they're not being lumped in with the "small states," then I can only imagine that some of these territories must be city sized, perhaps smaller. I'm curious how that could have developed.

 

[Chercha]

Something else to think about: this TL is probably a lot better for the Jews. IOTL, the stark difference between their religious traditions and the general Greco-Roman ones have always set them apart. While people leave them alone in general, their communities tend to be very separate from wider society and they didn't tend to have much to do with their neighbours, especially in centuries past. With a dominant religion from the same tradition, it is likely they are far more involved with wider society and treated better; there could conceivably be a lot more Jews than IOTL if the Jewish-Christian relations are like those between Vaishnavism and Shaivism in India or the Jupiterist and Plutonic strains of Larism in Europe.

I'm wondering what the threshold the map uses to define small states in this empire, some of the entities that are depicted look mighty small already, and if they're not being lumped in with the "small states," then I can only imagine that some of these territories must be city sized, perhaps smaller. I'm curious how that could have developed.

My money is on a plague. Even a 'general' breakdown of society would not generate so many and such tiny statelets; even in Germania the bureaucracy and societal cohesion should have been to great for such fragmentation, unless something genuinely pseudoapocalyptic happened. Perhaps this Europe's feudal characteristics arose in response to that.

 

[Gwyain]

Something else to think about: this TL is probably a lot better for the Jews. IOTL, the stark difference between their religious traditions and the general Greco-Roman ones have always set them apart. While people leave them alone in general, their communities tend to be very separate from wider society and they didn't tend to have much to do with their neighbours, especially in centuries past. With a dominant religion from the same tradition, it is likely they are far more involved with wider society and treated better; there could conceivably be a lot more Jews than IOTL if the Jewish-Christian relations are like those between Vaishnavism and Shaivism in India or the Jupiterist and Plutonic strains of Larism in Europe.

Possible, but some of the Jewish schismatics were pretty hostile to each other IOTL, if the Christians follow in that tradition then I can see the Christians persecuting Jews instead of being friendly.

 

[Chercha]

Possible, but some of the Jewish schismatics were pretty hostile to each other IOTL, if the Christians follow in that tradition then I can see the Christians persecuting Jews instead of being friendly.

True. At its worst familiarity could end up breeding contempt; at its best, the difference between Jews and Christians would be whether they put their emphasis on the Father or the Son (IIRC Christians saw Jesus as the Son of God and the messiah, someone correct me if I'm wrong). That why I made parallels with the relationships between strains of thought in hinduism and larism.

 

[JSilvy]

What's with this Frankish kingdom controlling Gaul and parts of Italy while the Holy Roman Empire is centered in Germania? That seems like a weird switch to take place.

 

[Merrick]

Perhaps this HRE isn't really an Empire in the traditional sense, but more of some governing body similar to the *Insert this realities EU equivalent here* A governing body acting as an intermediary between these various Germanic states while they remain independent. As for the Holy and Roman parts, my guess is that this body might have started as something akin to a counsel of priests for whatever faith the Germanic's follow, and it was handed more power over time. as for the Roman, maybe this Hapsburg state was founded by a Roman general of some kind who was able to hold heavy sway over the Germanic states.

Remember the timing. It's supposed to be 1500 years after Jesus of Nazareth, and IIRC he is conventionally dated to the reign of Caesar Tiberius. Now 1500 years after Tiberius puts us well after the Second Migration Period but still pre-industrial, early Transition Period at most. That's rather late for tribal confederacies but still very early for any idea of supranational government. Likewise Central Germania isn't going have enough urban development for city-states, unless the butterflies have been working overtime.

I like your council of priests, though. In fact, I'm wondering if the "Holy Roman Empire" is a political entity at all. We're told that Christianity is strong TTL. Now Christians like their hierarchies, all the local temples subject to the regional temples and all of those to the central Temple. And because thy're monotheists, all the temples are in the same hierarchy. So could this "Holy Empire" be a religious division - the area where the local temples are subject to the "Roman" branch of Christianity? That would explain why the border crosses political boundaries, and the small subdivisions would just be the areas administered by the local temples.

Doesn't explain the "Roman" though - unless the "Empire" had a schism (something else the Christians love doing) and the Germanic bit stayed with the old Roman branch and the Italians went off with the Papal branch. In fact, there could be "Ottoman" and "Spainish" and "Francist" branches as well, except where the states are stronger you'd expect them to have the temples under state control.

ETA - Or we could just be overthinking this. I was having another look at the "Empire" and guess what - two Saxonys, about a hundred leagues apart.
I'm starting to think this map was just thrown together slapdash, with no real attempt to make it consistent.

 

[Help]

Remember the timing. It's supposed to be 1500 years after Jesus of Nazareth, and IIRC he is conventionally dated to the reign of Caesar Tiberius. Now 1500 years after Tiberius puts us well after the Second Migration Period but still pre-industrial, early Transition Period at most. That's rather late for tribal confederacies but still very early for any idea of supranational government. Likewise Central Germania isn't going have enough urban development for city-states, unless the butterflies have been working overtime.

I like your council of priests, though. In fact, I'm wondering if the "Holy Roman Empire" is a political entity at all. We're told that Christianity is strong TTL. Now Christians like their hierarchies, all the local temples subject to the regional temples and all of those to the central Temple. And because thy're monotheists, all the temples are in the same hierarchy. So could this "Holy Empire" be a religious division - the area where the local temples are subject to the "Roman" branch of Christianity? That would explain why the border crosses political boundaries, and the small subdivisions would just be the areas administered by the local temples.

Doesn't explain the "Roman" though - unless the "Empire" had a schism (something else the Christians love doing) and the Germanic bit stayed with the old Roman branch and the Italians went off with the Papal branch. In fact, there could be "Ottoman" and "Spainish" and "Francist" branches as well, except where the states are stronger you'd expect them to have the temples under state control.

ETA - Or we could just be overthinking this. I was having another look at the "Empire" and guess what - two Saxonys, about a hundred leagues apart.
I'm starting to think this map was just thrown together slapdash, with no real attempt to make it consistent.

Maybe there is a Germanic succession law that grows popular? I don't know what could lead to these border abominations in the HRE, but building of from tribal traditions, maybe the Germanic tribes let the land split to the sons after the king dies. Pretty stupide IMO, but it seems to be the only possible reason for the border limbo, when coupled which dynastic shenanigans.

 

[Salamander]

A resurgent Egypt looks about right, but who in the Underworld are the Ottomans & why are they ruling the Hellenic Empire? And why do so many of the Empires islands & southern Italy seem to belong to other people?

I take it that "Spain" is a corruption of Hispania, but it would appear as if the Kingdom of Hispania has split during a war over the throne, possibly with a cadet branch of the royal family seizing control of Lusitania. Not sure about "Portugal" unless they named it after the ruling Prince. The Basques also seem to have taken the opportunity to reassert their independence.

The Papal States seems to indicate that Rome and the rest of Latium are ruled by a theocracy of some sort, possibly this "Christianity" the author of the manuscript keeps going on about. A "Holy Roman Empire", (in Germania???), is possibly a theocratic confederation based on a Roman version of Christianity, although it does appear to be on the brink of schism if so.

How did Gaul end up being named after an obscure German tribal grouping that existed for less than a century? And Pictland is now Scotland? Weird.

It looks as if the author/cartographer has chosen, for some reason, to depict the provinces of Hibernia as being separate instead of united. And that there seems to be an incursion/settlement by the Engles, who, from memory, honoured their treaties with the Britons and yet are depicted here as having overrun & conquered Britannia, instead of the Low Countries & the northern Gaulish coast as far as Brittany, as they did IOTL. England is supposed to run from Brittany to the Baltic, including the peninsular & islands that this map gives to "Denmark".

 

[Simeon]

Perhaps, the Germanic King also took that Abrahamic, perhaps Christian Faith and claimed legitimacy through it?

 

[George Washington]

I have a theory on Portugal’s weird name. The residents of Gaul became seafaring people and established the Port of Gaul and fought against Spain. Weird theory, but still

 

[Somebody-Someone]

True. At its worst familiarity could end up breeding contempt; at its best, the difference between Jews and Christians would be whether they put their emphasis on the Father or the Son (IIRC Christians saw Jesus as the Son of God and the messiah, someone correct me if I'm wrong). That why I made parallels with the relationships between strains of thought in hinduism and larism.

Most Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and Messiah. The only real exception is the Abyssinian Church, who believe him to be "just" a prophet.

 

[Somebody-Someone]

I have a theory on Portugal’s weird name. The residents of Gaul became seafaring people and established the Port of Gaul and fought against Spain. Weird theory, but still

I already put up a theory on Iberia earlier in this thread. There was a state called “Portugali” which did control (and have a capital in) the northernmost part of this “Portugal”, but most of its land was in “Spain”. Its capital was the city of Portus Cale (present day Caleyashi).