DBWI: Europeans discover the New World

Mansa Abu Bakr II is credited with discovering the New World, causing the Mali Empire to expand overseas and eventually end up in a competition with the Songhai and other West African civilizations. However, due to their geographic position, the Europeans could have just as easily sailed west and discovered the New World. I know it sounds weird that a continent as primitive as Europe of all places would dominate the world, but it's not entirely out of the question. What if the Europeans discovered the New World instead of the Mali?
 
Hmmm, interesting. Though when you say the Songhai, I would think that Mali would be busy invading Gao and Timbuktu and other lost cities. After all, they basically have everything they need: Gold mines, trees, etc.
 
Morocco may not have had the strength from their settler colonies in Mesoamerica and their vassal islamized Inca states to conquer the entirety of Iberia in the late 1500s. Most outrageously, perhaps the Ottoman Turks may not have been able to conquer the coast of China, which shortly became independent as an islamic state and went on to slowly grind against the interior.
 
See the problem is if the Europeans had brought their diseases and fanatical christianity to the new world without time to adapt the new world civilizations might have been wiped out and without Aztec Islam then who would convert china. Also i Europe could have had a chance. See there was this religious wacko named Christopher columbus who wanted to get to asia and wouldve found the new world
OOC Aztec Islam is combining Aztec Polytheism with islam.
 
It was inevitable that the Manden Kurufaba would discover the New World when the King of Tekrur converted to Islam in the early 11th century but the Ghana of Wagadou did not. At the time, Wagadou may have been the big power in the region, but the Soninke did not control the gold mines. That fell to the king of Djenne. With the Ghana openly hostile to Islam and warring with the Almoravids, that shifted the trade routes away from Koumbi Saleh and towards just taking a pirogue up the Senegal to Podor and then trading north with the Almoravids.

If you have Wagadou and maybe the Songhai convert to Islam instead of stubbornly remaining pagan roadblocks on the Sijilmasa trade lane, the trade route probably stays inland and never becomes riverine, and there's no incentive for the Mandinka to adopt Andalusian ship technology to attempt to sail up the Atlasic seaboard to Sale in the period after the fall of the Almoravids. There's also no incentive for traders to adapt the qarib to make the journey down to Podor from Qadis or Sale. If the trade route stays inland, Mandinka traders never build goldships like the one that swung out too far on a trade-wind cycle and reached the New World. After that, Abu Bakr II's expedition was all but inevitable; the Mandinka had the wealth to do it.



Worth noting that a POD in which Europe finds the New World first might cut the Sahel off from the crop package it needed for the huge growth boom that coincided with the arrival of cassava and maize. The tsetse fly might even continue to be everywhere in this timeline without the massive clearing of jungles for new irrigation and cities.
 
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See the problem is if the Europeans had brought their diseases and fanatical christianity to the new world without time to adapt the new world civilizations might have been wiped out and without Aztec Islam then who would convert china. Also i Europe could have had a chance. See there was this religious wacko named Christopher columbus who wanted to get to asia and wouldve found the new world
OOC Aztec Islam is combining Aztec Polytheism with islam.

I mean, Nawwat Sufism really isn’t radically different from Sufism in other parts of the world, though I will admit that it did play a part in the conversion of al-Sin; the odyssey of Nawwat mystic and missionary Abdullah al-Washaki [lit. “of Oaxaca”] is probably one of the greatest travel stories ever written, just for the sheer unlikelihood of a newly-converted Nawwat undertaking a voyage from his homeland to al-Andalus, then from there around the southern tip of Ifriqiyah, past Hindustan and the Islands Below the Winds and finally to the capital of the Great Khan, where he managed to convert even part of their highly-traditionalist nobility... all this in the years 774-778 [1372-1376 CE], just about sixty years after the land he was born in was discovered by Mali! Seriously, for anyone who has not read of this guy, do it now.
 
See the problem is if the Europeans had brought their diseases and fanatical christianity to the new world without time to adapt the new world civilizations might have been wiped out and without Aztec Islam then who would convert china. Also i Europe could have had a chance. See there was this religious wacko named Christopher columbus who wanted to get to asia and wouldve found the new world
OOC Aztec Islam is combining Aztec Polytheism with islam.
This is a pretty silly assumption. The Mandinka and Andalusis also brought disease. A lot of people in the Algarves died.

An organized campaign of extirpation would be impossible anyway. First off, there is no compulsion in Islam. Second, Abu Bakr's expedition wasn't one of conquest, it was one of trade. New Worlders converted the same way Sahelians did: Through trade ties and the works of marabouts and Sufis. Third, neither the Manden Kurufaba nor al-Andalus had the capacity to launch a wholesale invasion of the New World.
 
Yes maybe not the mali but once the Aztecs and Inca converted to aztec Islam it has pretty much become the dominant religion in the Americas. In additions once the Islamic irqious empires took over scandanavia germany england and france they were pretty much unstoppable
 
Yes maybe not the mali but once the Aztecs and Inca converted to aztec Islam it has pretty much become the dominant religion in the Americas. In additions once the Islamic irqious empires took over scandanavia germany england and france they were pretty much unstoppable

Islam in Tawantinsuyu is vastly different from that of Meshiq—for one thing, the people of Jimur and Qusqu place far more emphasis on absolute monotheism than the Nawwat do, and possibly even more than in some Old World regions, likely as a cultural defense mechanism from the turbulent early years of Islamic expansion in the region, when disease still ran roughshod over the native Algarveans and newly-converted states in the north began attacking their neighbors with weapons gained from trade with the east. It’s a fascinating period of massive social change, though the assertion that the foundation for the modern Jimur Republic is a bit of an exaggeration.

And while empires such as the Manden Kurufaba and al-Andalus (mainly the latter) came to economically and (to a small extent) religiously dominate Europe—for example, the conversion of the Irish in the 850s [1440s-50s CE]—direct control never really extended beyond the Pyrenees in the west and the eastern Austrian Alps in the east.
 
Yes maybe not the mali but once the Aztecs and Inca converted to aztec Islam it has pretty much become the dominant religion in the Americas. In additions once the Islamic irqious empires took over scandanavia germany england and france they were pretty much unstoppable
Obviously the world would be a lot different without the United States of Hodenoshoniya and their empire. Do you think a European version would rise in it's place? Personally I doubt it, because I feel like Europe would need some sort of serious enlightenment to get them going on the OTL Hodenoshoni ideals of liberty and democracy. I imagine any sort of European style society would just be kinda feudalistic, relying upon a slave system, or just be made up entirely of European immigrants straight up killing nearly all of the natives on the continent.
 

Maoistic

Banned
See the problem is if the Europeans had brought their diseases and fanatical christianity to the new world without time to adapt the new world civilizations might have been wiped out and without Aztec Islam then who would convert china. Also i Europe could have had a chance. See there was this religious wacko named Christopher columbus who wanted to get to asia and wouldve found the new world
OOC Aztec Islam is combining Aztec Polytheism with islam.
The Malians had diseases like malaria, yet that didn't wipe out the Taino and Aztec population they first encountered.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Second, Abu Bakr's expedition wasn't one of conquest, it was one of trade. New Worlders converted the same way Sahelians did: Through trade ties and the works of marabouts and Sufis. Third, neither the Manden Kurufaba nor al-Andalus had the capacity to launch a wholesale invasion of the New World.
This is wrong. Abu Bakr did try to invade the first islands he found, but got repulsed after very minor advances in the Bahamas northern Cuba, until he faced a coalition by Queen Anacaona from Haiti that included southern Cubans and forces from nearby islands like Boriken. This is what forced him to switch to mere trade, which is why it took nearly a century for the Aztecs to convert, and even more for the Incas and northern peoples like the Iroquois. Neither were they turned into vassals because of conversion. Trading is not "vassalage", nor is conversion to Islam.
 
I feel like a part of it is the fucking moron that followed him, I think his name was Musa or something like that. Dude spent the entire treasury on a bunch of BS to try to get the Muslim world to like him, and in return lost the opportunity to really expand into the New World, and it's gold and silver with it. Have Musa fall off his horse or something and the next best person take over, who doesn't spend the entire treasury on ostentatious bullshit, and then Mali could actually establish the settler colonies y'all are talking about.

Back on topic, I don't think the Khoikhoi and San "Potato Empires" would have formed if Europe discovered the Americas. That's a real shame too, Khoikhoi Potatoes and Milk are delicious; I might go get some down at the Matwebʘa Market after I log off.
 
I think there are two PODs here: a successful Vinland or Abu Bakr falls of his horse. I’m sceptical of Vinland, so Ill go with the latter: in the 15 or 16 hundreds, some Italian or German Kingdom does what Bakr did. Europe would probably want conquest: the natives, outside of maybe the Inca, Aztecs, Mississippi, and a few others are royally fucked. They’d be like the Aboriginals to their discoverers. As for the government, either feudal or, if they’re lucky, republicanism lite. Ironically, Mali would probably be better off: without the influx of gold from Tawantinsuyu, inflation could have been kept down. Christianity would’ve taken Islam’s place as the dominant religion. Whoever gets these colonies would be a shoe in for world power (I wanna say the Hansaeatic league, but that’s probably just my Hanoverian nationalistic fantasies.) It’s a good world for Europeans, and a MUCH worse world for literally everyone else.
 
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Maoistic

Banned
I think there are two PODs here: a successful Vinland or Abu Bakr falls of his horse. I’m sceptical of Vinland, so Ill go with the latter: in the 15 or 16 hundreds, some Italian or German Kingdom does what Bakr did. Europe would probably want conquest: the natives, outside of maybe the Inca, Aztecs, Mississippi, and a few others are royally fucked. They’d be like the Aboriginals to their discoverers. As for the government, either feudal or, if they’re lucky, republicanism lite. Ironically, Mali would probably be better off: without the influx of gold from Tawantinsuyu, inflation could have been kept down. Christianity would’ve taken Islam’s place as the dominant religion. Whoever gets these colonies would be a shoe in for world power (I wanna say the Hansaeatic league, but that’s probably just my Hanoverian nationalistic fantasies.) It’s a good world for Europeans, and a MUCH worse world for literally everyone else.
If that was the case, then why is it that Abu Bakr's initial military expedition was met with disaster when Queen Anacaona created a coalition of forces from the various surrounding states and soundly defeated him in less than a year, reversing all progress he made?

I only see Europeans succeeding if they play the various Taino states against each other for a number of decades, then use their important trade routes to cut off the Aztecs from a good portion of their supply lines and then ally with rebel nobles that can amass great armies that rival those of the Aztec emperor.
 
If that was the case, then why is it that Abu Bakr's initial military expedition was met with disaster when Queen Anacaona created a coalition of forces from the various surrounding states and soundly defeated him in less than a year, reversing all progress he made?

I only see Europeans succeeding if they play the various Taino states against each other for a number of decades, then use their important trade routes to cut off the Aztecs from a good portion of their supply lines and then ally with rebel nobles that can amass great armies that rival those of the Aztec emperor.
The Aztecs only survived because they converted to Islam, unless they convert to Christianity and ally with the discoverers they’re going to be screwed by their local enemies. And Europe was less willing to let the locals be and self govern. Look at the Saxons and the Balts. Compare that to the Christians and Jews in the various Islamic nations. Of course, the Islamic nations weren’t paragons of tolerance, but IMO they had a better track record in this period. I could be very, very wrong in this though.

Anyways, you’re right in that it will be hard to defeat many of these nations. But smallpox really fucks up a countries ability to defend itself. Not to mention, if guns or steel exist that’ll make things much harder.
 

Maoistic

Banned
The Aztecs only survived because they converted to Islam, unless they convert to Christianity and ally with the discoverers they’re going to be screwed by their local enemies. And Europe was less willing to let the locals be and self govern. Look at the Saxons and the Balts. Compare that to the Christians and Jews in the various Islamic nations. Of course, the Islamic nations weren’t paragons of tolerance, but IMO they had a better track record in this period. I could be very, very wrong in this though.

The structure of the Holy Roman Empire, with prince electors and duchies that were practically independent, speaks against this assertion. The Baltics also remained independent. Even the Teutonic Knights didn't annex the Prussian Balts' territory into a pre-existing one, they instead carved out an independent territory, and Lithuania even became a major medieval power and even remained a significant player when it joined Poland. There's nothing that shows that Christianity was more prone to annexation and conquest than Islam.

And no, it wasn't the Aztec conversion to Islam that allowed the Aztec Empire to survie, but the fact that the Mali Empire gave up in further military expeditions after the disastrous attempt at conquering Cuba and other nearby islands that got virtually curbstomped by Anacaona, and decided to trade instead. The Aztecs converted because of Muslim missionaries, not because of Malian invasions.

Anyways, you’re right in that it will be hard to defeat many of these nations. But smallpox really fucks up a countries ability to defend itself. Not to mention, if guns or steel exist that’ll make things much harder.
No, it doesn't.
 
No, it doesn't.
Kind of depends on how much of the OTL military advances still happen; the Europeans lost at their fringes, but they were never so soundly outclassed that they could be slaughtered, at least until industry took off (and even then only for a short period). So if the military advances of the post-discovery era still happen before the Europeans discover the new world (and honestly, who'd expect them to be just as fast?), they will be much stronger when they land than Mali was.
 
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