DBWI: Europe and China not emerging as Superpowers

It is no mistake that when the US, Soviet Union collapsed it sent ripples through the entire world. Even though the United States was victorious in the Cold War over the Soviets, it collapsed violently with the Russians, both balkanizing.

The world after that adjusted with many nations such as the PRC adjusting, changing because of the massive power vacuum left by the United States-Soviet Union collapse. But their is no doubt that Europe and China are the worlds powers.

So what if we could prevent the collapse of the US? After all it was victorious in the Cold War?

How would the world be different if we can prevent it?
 
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Prevent the presidency of Dick Cheney. His quasi-dictatorial administration set the stage for the fragmentation of America in the 1990s.
 
Well there were also other factors. The economic "Finlandization" of Germany, Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam throughout the 1950s, rather than create a divided political and economic set of nations , created a mixed/collaborative system whereby both the Warsaw Pact and European Economic Commonwealth had a trading partner in Europe, and both China and Japan had a common trade partner.

It didn't help matters that Germany and Japan were able to buildup their military forces starting in 1991,...

In regards to America, according to Cheney apologists, the blame belongs to the economic policies of President Edward M. Kennedy and Jerry Brown, and the "lack of willingness to prosecute war against the American Indian Movement ...
 
Prevent the presidency of Dick Cheney. His quasi-dictatorial administration set the stage for the fragmentation of America in the 1990s.

Please. Dick Cheney was like Lincoln compared to that Theocratic whackjob Santorum that came after him. If only the left hadn't split from the Democrats to back Nader. I can still hear all those self-righteous college students bleating nonsense about "the establishment". I mean, I wasn't a huge fan of the DLC either but it would've been better than Santorum "Making America Christian again".
 

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Well look what was thought in the eighties - before Soviet Block collapsed. The future was to belong to European Community (happend), USA (it is still a superpower, its position is contested, that's all), Japan (didn't happend after economic stagnation hit in late eighties, and in the nineties its economy didn't cope well with American Collapse), and whatever USSR would evolve into. (back then it seemed just too big to fail.)

What was missed in this picture is China. Perhaps there we should seek the root of a current situation


I realise that americano-centric world view is prevalent in english speaking parts of the Web but I really doubt that picking one politician over other, especially in a political system as ideologicaly homogenic as democrats&republicans, would really matter. Dick Cheney is a lousy choice, but he was elected when american economy was in crisis already.
 
Prevent the presidency of Dick Cheney. His quasi-dictatorial administration set the stage for the fragmentation of America in the 1990s.
Please. Dick Cheney was like Lincoln compared to that Theocratic whackjob Santorum that came after him. If only the left hadn't split from the Democrats to back Nader. I can still hear all those self-righteous college students bleating nonsense about "the establishment". I mean, I wasn't a huge fan of the DLC either but it would've been better than Santorum "Making America Christian again".

OOC: Sounds a lot like Rumsfeldia.

IC: You can't really blame the people for picking Cheney at the time. The whole country was in turmoil due to the war against the AIM being an unmitigated disaster. The people wanted victory, they just weren't prepared for the cost of victory.
 
Please. Dick Cheney was like Lincoln compared to that Theocratic whackjob Santorum that came after him. If only the left hadn't split from the Democrats to back Nader. I can still hear all those self-righteous college students bleating nonsense about "the establishment". I mean, I wasn't a huge fan of the DLC either but it would've been better than Santorum "Making America Christian again".

Even Cheney was so disgusted with Santorum that he went into exile in Canada. Of course, Cheney's memoirs gloss over the fact that it was his abuse of executive power that set the precedent for Ol' Frothy's madness.
 
Finlandisation? [1] You mean the economic policies adopted by a substantial chunk of mainland Europe during the 1990's? Well it certainly helped those economies bounce back after that early-90's shock and set the stage for what became the EU to attain Global Superpower Status.

With China's rapid Industrialisation in the same period making that happen for them, well, given that there weren't a huge number of places left that could produce the raw goods and export them to who needed them, that they were able to achieve >12% Growth [2] for five straight years isn't unexpected.

As for how to keep at the very least the US from collapsing/breaking up? Well actually having a military they could afford to maintain is one way, which is one of the reasons the USSR collapsed. And that requires either a smaller military or higher taxes.


OOC:

[1] - IIRC, this is an economic model that means high personal taxes (averaging 45% of income) but low corporate taxation, so the government can afford to do quite bit but there's the breathing space to allow for R&D, Investment, things like that.

[2] - AKAIK, China managed close to 10% Growth throughout the 1990's, so an extra 2% for five of them with a lot of the 'competition' removed isn't unreasonable.
 
One must not forget the fall of the US and USSR also let other nations and alliances to rise.

Japan, after it was able to fix itself, form the Pacific Bloc with South Korea, and other Asian/ Oceania nations to try to stand they own and not do what China's say.

South America has grow since what happen to the US and Russia with Argentina and Brazil in the lead.
 
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Well there were also other factors. The economic "Finlandization" of Germany, Korea and to a lesser extent Vietnam throughout the 1950s, rather than create a divided political and economic set of nations , created a mixed/collaborative system whereby both the Warsaw Pact and European Economic Commonwealth had a trading partner in Europe, and both China and Japan had a common trade partner.

It didn't help matters that Germany and Japan were able to buildup their military forces starting in 1991,...

In regards to America, according to Cheney apologists, the blame belongs to the economic policies of President Edward M. Kennedy and Jerry Brown, and the "lack of willingness to prosecute war against the American Indian Movement ...

I will add onto this that when the COINTELPRO Scandal hit during late 60s, it added to the instability with what you mentioned, AIM. Man when that whistleblower from the FBI leaked everything, things got worse as many of the groups targeted simply became more emboldened to fight for their cause whether the black nationalists, white supremacists, communist, socialist, the New Left, etc is what I think is the big cause for the downfall of America.

One must not forget the fall of the US and USSR also let other nations and alliances to rise.

Japan, after it was able to fix itself, form the Pacific Bloc with South Korea, and other Asian/ Oceania to try to stand they own and not do what China's say.

South America has grow since what happen to the US and Russia with Argentina and Brazil in the lead.

I prefer the Pacific Bloc to be called a hegemony of South Korea and Japan. Japanese and Korean media really has become quite global though it still has to compete with Hollywood. California is quite a major power in the Pacific bloc to. Considering how much technology/innovation is pumped out from the Golden state and that Hollywood continue to rake in blockbuster profits each year.

Also to add to California that we annexed most of the West except the PNW[1] so we could have access to Colorado water. But we really made the other member states of the former USA cautious to us but specifically, increasing tensions with Texas especially when we are pretty much rivals in former America.


I think that when the IJ annexed Karafuto and Chishima [2], that marked the signal to the world that Japan really was going to a major force. Chishima archipelago minerals of Pyrite, Sulfur, and Polymetal is a major strategic value with Karafuto oil and gas deposits.

You can add in the PHL as well. Macapagal -Arroyo did a fine job returning the Philippines from its economic slump after the collapse of America by focusing trade with members of the Pacific bloc. Add into the fact that the Philippines has a major BPO industry when that we overtook India as call center capital of the world.

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[1] Pacific Northwest
[2] Karafuto is the Japanese name for Sakhalin and Chishima for the Kurils

OOC: I removed South Asia from becoming "fire" since an event like that will add too much into the DBWI.
 
I prefer the Pacific Bloc to be called a hegemony of South Korea and Japan. Japanese and Korean media really has become quite global though it still has to compete with Hollywood. California is quite a major power in the Pacific bloc to. Considering how much technology/innovation is pumped out from the Golden state and that Hollywood continue to rake in blockbuster profits each year.

Also to add to California that we annexed most of the West except the PNW[1] so we could have access to Colorado water. But we really made the other member states of the former USA cautious to us but specifically, increasing tensions with Texas especially when we are pretty much rivals in former America.


I think that when the IJ annexed Karafuto and Chishima [2], that marked the signal to the world that Japan really was going to a major force. Chishima archipelago minerals of Pyrite, Sulfur, and Polymetal is a major strategic value with Karafuto oil and gas deposits.

You can add in the PHL as well. Macapagal -Arroyo did a fine job returning the Philippines from its economic slump after the collapse of America by focusing trade with members of the Pacific bloc. Add into the fact that the Philippines has a major BPO industry when that we overtook India as call center capital of the world.

[1] Pacific Northwest
[2] Karafuto is the Japanese name for Sakhalin and Chishima for the Kurils
.

I do wonder how things would work out with China if not for the rise of the Pacific Bloc and fall of the US/Russia. They never been on the best of terms, but North Korea always be sore point between the two. China keep NK around as a front.

Texas always been one of the more right nations in the old US. You could blame the last few presidents for jump started Texas. (Although it better now a bit.)
 
Finlandisation? [1] You mean the economic policies adopted by a substantial chunk of mainland Europe during the 1990's? Well it certainly helped those economies bounce back after that early-90's shock and set the stage for what became the EU to attain Global Superpower Status.

With China's rapid Industrialisation in the same period making that happen for them, well, given that there weren't a huge number of places left that could produce the raw goods and export them to who needed them, that they were able to achieve >12% Growth [2] for five straight years isn't unexpected.

As for how to keep at the very least the US from collapsing/breaking up? Well actually having a military they could afford to maintain is one way, which is one of the reasons the USSR collapsed. And that requires either a smaller military or higher taxes.


OOC:

[1] - IIRC, this is an economic model that means high personal taxes (averaging 45% of income) but low corporate taxation, so the government can afford to do quite bit but there's the breathing space to allow for R&D, Investment, things like that.

[2] - AKAIK, China managed close to 10% Growth throughout the 1990's, so an extra 2% for five of them with a lot of the 'competition' removed isn't unreasonable.

IC: With the collapse of the United States, much of it could be explained by the massive ethnic, economic caste and sectarian turmoil that occurred arguably since the first Civil War

OOC: If anything, I had to place the idea into place, if only to make sure that not only military and political policies can cause massive shifts in policy and development. Also consider the idea that the Scandinavian myth of a near-socialist utopia:

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/01/38271...hat-happy-the-myth-of-the-scandinavian-utopia
 
I will add onto this that when the COINTELPRO Scandal hit during late 60s, it added to the instability with what you mentioned, AIM. Man when that whistleblower from the FBI leaked everything, things got worse as many of the groups targeted simply became more emboldened to fight for their cause whether the black nationalists, white supremacists, communist, socialist, the New Left, etc is what I think is the big cause for the downfall of America.

Well, it was certainly part of it. Consider you also had the nuclear meltdowns at Three Mile Island and Mount Diablo which damaged the crops in Pennsylvania and California for years, the flooding of cities of Miami and Los Angeles due to public planning, and the libertarian policies established by Andrew Rand since the 1970s,.....
 
All I know is that California would have been its own nation eventually, I mean, the signs were there. The rampant leaning to the right in the government was happening even before the Cheney and Santorum administrations. The fall of the USSR just would destabilize the world economy too much for economic instability not to happen.

And yes, I'm biased. Very much so. I love my Golden State, and my City By The Bay especially, but we can't ignore the fact that neither nations were very stable to begin with.
 
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