DBWI: England survives Burgundian Invasion?

What if the Burgundian invasion of England in 1520 had failed, and England remained an independent nation?
 
What an interesting idea !

Of course, I'm supposed to do this in the spirit of a DBWI, which I am shit at, but I'll give it a go...

Um...shit no, can't think how to

But a unique idea, well done !
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
One wonders what effects a weaker Burgundy would have on the Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth. Might it survive longer?

You see I can't come up with ideas like that, when i actually want to discuss the Burgundian invasion of England, which by the very definition of this thread as a DBWI I cannot do so...

Most perturbing to what I like to call my brain

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

ninebucks

Banned
One wonders what effects a weaker Burgundy would have on the Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth. Might it survive longer?

A failed invasion could well be a blessing in disguise for the Burgundians. In OTL, their foreign policy was dictated by having to maintain a stable strip of land from their core territories to the Low Lands and securing their hegemony over the Manche. Without having to stretch themselves so thin all the time, they may be able to put their energies to better uses, like into North Africa or the Italies.
 
What an interesting idea !

Of course, I'm supposed to do this in the spirit of a DBWI, which I am shit at, but I'll give it a go...

Um...shit no, can't think how to

But a unique idea, well done !
Best Regards
Grey Wolf

You see I can't come up with ideas like that, when i actually want to discuss the Burgundian invasion of England, which by the very definition of this thread as a DBWI I cannot do so...

Most perturbing to what I like to call my brain

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Well, I guess I could have been more specific in terms of the POD, since there are several. In OTL, the French army under King Louis' heir the Duke of Milan (Louis/Ludwig/Ludovico Sforza, depending on your preference) was defeated by a far inferior force led by Crown Prince Philip, and Sforza was killed. This, of course, led to the final dissolution of "France" until its restoration by the House of Savoy in the 17th century.

If the French win, King Charles will have to return to Burgundy itself. If the French are defeated, and Sforza lives, France will still exist as a nation, and the complete subjugation of England will be rather hard with the France still existing as a threat.

On the other hand, you could have as your POD an English victory at Buckland when the Duke of Suffolk's army tried to launch an attack (after several days' marching, with little rest) on Charles' army.

Yet another possible POD is that John II (de la Pole) doesn't surrender himself to Charles at London, and retreats to the north. The resistance centered on the Earl of Warwick could have been much more robust with John's presence, instead of falling apart on Warwick's death in 1522.

Of course, you could run POD's as far back as the Yorkists not winning the War of the Roses, as long as you can make England survive the Burgundian invasion, or Charles I dying before the age of 90 (!) in 1523.

Or you can make a POD based on one of the historical events of the later 16th and early 17th centuries: there were pretenders to the "English" throne as late as 1615, and a brief occupation of England instead of a consolidation of Burgundian power could be considered a "defeat" of the invasion. The choice is yours!

A failed invasion could well be a blessing in disguise for the Burgundians. In OTL, their foreign policy was dictated by having to maintain a stable strip of land from their core territories to the Low Lands and securing their hegemony over the Manche. Without having to stretch themselves so thin all the time, they may be able to put their energies to better uses, like into North Africa or the Italies.

True. The many French duchies and counties were always a thorn in the side of Burgundy, and they coalesced into a nemesis when the House of Savoy united them in the recreated Kingdom of France. Not to mention that not holding England would mean not having to maintain armies to defend against the Scots, or throw troops into the two senseless invasions of Scotland they tried.

I'm not sure how you think Burgundy would be interested in North Africa: they would have to build a powerful fleet indeed to play in Aragon's waters.

A Burgundian invasion of Italy would be very interesting. It could only delay, if not disrupt entirely the slow centralization of the Italian republics into the Italian Confederation, and thus entirely prevent the rise of the New Roman Empire. What a different world that would be!
 
Last edited:
One wonders what effects a weaker Burgundy would have on the Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth. Might it survive longer?

I'm not sure. It seems like an obvious target for Burgundian and Saxon aggression/expansion once the Twenty Years' War and the Charter of Munich end any chance of further centralization, but if Burgundy's other enemies fall on her after a catastrophic Burgundian failure, it might have a chance to survive.
 
Current DBWI Timeline:

POD: unknown, but before 1485 (Yorkists win War of Roses) and 1477 (Charles of Burgundy survives).

POD-1520:

England
Richard III becomes King of England. At some point he dies, and John de la Pole becomes John II. Edmund de la Pole (Duke of Suffolk) and Edward Plantaganet (Earl of Warwick) survive this entire period.

Europe
By 1520, the name of the King of France is Louis. This could be a longer-lived OTL Louis XII, or someone else entirely. However, his heir is Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan. Whether this Ludovico is the OTL Duke of Milan from 1494-1500 who died in a French prison in OTL or an ATL descendant of his is unknown. How he became heir to the French throne is also unknown.

Charles I of Burgundy becomes a King rather than a Duke at some point. His heir by 1520 is Philip, most likely his son, and already of age to lead an army.

The Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth is formed.

1520:

England
Successful invasion of England by Burgundy. John II's brother, the Duke of Suffolk, is defeated at Buckland, and John gives himself up to Charles at London. The Earl of Warwick (Richard III's "temporary" heir) continues resistance in the north.

Europe
Ludovico Sforza is killed in battle with Charles I's heir, Philip.

1522:

England
The Earl of Warwick dies. Major resistance to Burgundian rule ends...for a time.

1523:


Europe
Charles I of Burgundy dies at the age of 90.

16th and 17th centuries:

England
Several pretenders to the throne of England rise up: none are ultimately successful. The Burgundians are often at war with Scotland, and two invasions of Scotland ultimately fail.

Europe
At least for this long, Burgundy maintains its possessions in England, the Low Countries, and their core territories. No colonial efforts are made, nor are invasions of North Africa or Italy made.

The Kingdom of France falls apart very soon after Ludovico Sforza's death, and the title does not exist for quite some time.

The Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth becomes weak after the Twenty Years' War (when? why?), and is eventually divided between Burgundy and Saxony (how did Saxony become powerful?).

The French counties and duchies (Artois, Berry, Orleans, etc) remain independent, and are occasionally at war with Burgundy. They are never completely subdued, and are eventually united into a new France under the House of Savoy.

Savoy eventually united non-Burgundian France into, well, France (how?).

The north Italian republics eventually consolidate into the Italian Confederation (why?).

Aragon is powerful in the Mediterranean throughout this period (why?).

18th century to the present day:

England

Unknown.

Europe

Burgundy and Savoyard-united France are bitter enemies for many years. Since France is Burgundy's nemesis, does this mean Burgundy eventually is destroyed, or seriously weakened?

The Italian Confederation becomes the New Roman Empire (how did it get Rome? what about the Papacy? how did a confederation of republics become an empire?), which has a very large effect on the rest of European (if not world) history.
 
In the long run , it might have been much better for a Burgundian Duke to remain childless sometime in the late 15th century or early 16th century. It Came very close to happening several times towards the end of the 1400s, and , due to the dynastical relationships of that time , I can forsee Burgundy being contended between the Hapsburgs and the House of Valois.After all , the seventy years war between Scotland , Burgundy , Savoyian France the Hapsburgs , the Ottomans and the rising power of Russia and Sweeden from 1552- 1625 largely resulted from an expansionistic Burgundy contesting the German states with the Hapsburgs in the Lutherist Heresies and the resulting Lutheran crusades .



As it is , a powerful Burgundy straddled the Loire and Rhine in our TL , with the North Sea to it's north and the Italia to it's south is ethnically divided into a french speaking West and German Speaking East . If there's no Burgundy , then the area would be divided between the French and the Hapsburgs( or whoever dominantes Germany , May I suggest the Poles:Dor maybe the Melckenburgers:D or some minor German principlaity:D) in this ATL.

The sucessful Burgundian conquest of England itself flamed the expansionistic tendencies that sparked off the devestating 70 years War . Ofcourse , we would'nt have the phrase Scottish Warth without that war.

In large parts of Europe , an old saying : " Pray my child , for tommorow , the warth of the Scots will be upon us " apparently dates from that time .

OCC: I believe there's a similar saying concerning the Swedes:D

I
 
Bump-a-thump

Current DBWI Timeline:

POD: unknown, but before 1485 (Yorkists win War of Roses) and 1477 (Charles of Burgundy survives).

POD-1520:

England
Richard III becomes King of England. At some point he dies, and John de la Pole becomes John II. Edmund de la Pole (Duke of Suffolk) and Edward Plantaganet (Earl of Warwick) survive this entire period.

Europe
By 1520, the name of the King of France is Louis. This could be a longer-lived OTL Louis XII, or someone else entirely. However, his heir is Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan. Whether this Ludovico is the OTL Duke of Milan from 1494-1500 who died in a French prison in OTL or an ATL descendant of his is unknown. How he became heir to the French throne is also unknown.

Charles I of Burgundy becomes a King rather than a Duke at some point. His heir by 1520 is Philip, most likely his son, and already of age to lead an army.

The Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth is formed.

1520:

England
Successful invasion of England by Burgundy. John II's brother, the Duke of Suffolk, is defeated at Buckland, and John gives himself up to Charles at London. The Earl of Warwick (Richard III's "temporary" heir) continues resistance in the north.

Europe
Ludovico Sforza is killed in battle with Charles I's heir, Philip.

1522:

England
The Earl of Warwick dies. Major resistance to Burgundian rule ends...for a time.

1523:

Europe
Charles I of Burgundy dies at the age of 90.

16th and 17th centuries:

England
Several pretenders to the throne of England rise up: none are ultimately successful. The Burgundians are often at war with Scotland, and two invasions of Scotland ultimately fail.

Europe
At least for this long, Burgundy maintains its possessions in England, the Low Countries, and their core territories. No colonial efforts are made, nor are invasions of North Africa or Italy made.

The Kingdom of France falls apart very soon after Ludovico Sforza's death, and the title does not exist for quite some time.

The Bavaro-Swiss Commonwealth becomes weak after the Twenty Years' War (when? why?), and is eventually divided between Burgundy and Saxony (how did Saxony become powerful?).

The French counties and duchies (Artois, Berry, Orleans, etc) remain independent, and are occasionally at war with Burgundy. They are never completely subdued, and are eventually united into a new France under the House of Savoy.

Savoy eventually united non-Burgundian France into, well, France (how?).

The north Italian republics eventually consolidate into the Italian Confederation (why?).

Aragon is powerful in the Mediterranean throughout this period (why?).

The Seventy Years' War rages from 1552-1625, involving Burgundy, Scotland, Savoy-united France, the Hapsburgs, the Ottomans, Russia, and Sweden. (What are the results? How did all of those nations get involved?) Burgundy starts the war (how?) by getting into a struggle over the German states with the Hapsburgs. Luther's "heresies" still take place, and in the midst of this devastating war several Lutheran Crusades take place: we do not know if the Lutheran heretics survive this or not. Interestingly, the Hapsburgs getting into a long war with Burgundy and others helps explain how the Italian city-states were able to be united without foreign intervention.

18th century to the present day:

England

Unknown.

Europe

Burgundy and Savoyard-united France are bitter enemies for many years. Since France is Burgundy's nemesis, does this mean Burgundy eventually is destroyed, or seriously weakened?

The Italian Confederation becomes the New Roman Empire (how did it get Rome? what about the Papacy? how did a confederation of republics become an empire?), which has a very large effect on the rest of European (if not world) history.
 
Basically , Burgundy slowly lost England throughout the 70 yearswar to the Scots , after a devestating naval defeat by combined Scottish-French Fleets in the English Channel .

In 1702 , the King of Scotland , James V declared Scotland and England to be united under the Kingdom of Britan .
 
Hmm...without the power vacuum left by the Hapsburgs, Venice doesn't come into ascendancy, and the Spaniards hold onto Naples, Sicily, Malta, Sardinia, and the Baelerics after (assuming it still happens) the First Italian Unification War. Then perhaps the Savoyards aren't driven over the Alps into Provence...
 
Basically , Burgundy slowly lost England throughout the 70 yearswar to the Scots , after a devestating naval defeat by combined Scottish-French Fleets in the English Channel .

In 1702 , the King of Scotland , James V declared Scotland and England to be united under the Kingdom of Britan .

Of course...I know history. Next you'll be telling me that it was the temporary dynastic union between decade-old France and Aragon from 1605-1623 that allowed the Family of Kings to send Ventura to link up with Wemyss to defeat the Burgundian fleet at Folkestone. :rolleyes:

I've just thought of an interesting question, however: a surviving English kingdom could have serious religious effects during the Seventy Years' War. If England hadn't been ravaged constantly, either by Burgundian taxation or Scottish armies, it could hardly have become the hotbed of heresy that it did during our timeline, meaning no Darbiac movement, meaning no Great Conversion in the 18th century by King James VII, and therefore no reason to expel Catholics to North Columbia.

Does this make any sense at all, or am I just running too far with this?
 
Last edited:
Hmm...without the power vacuum left by the Hapsburgs, Venice doesn't come into ascendancy, and the Spaniards hold onto Naples, Sicily, Malta, Sardinia, and the Baelerics after (assuming it still happens) the First Italian Unification War. Then perhaps the Savoyards aren't driven over the Alps into Provence...

True. Hapsburg interference in Italy would probably put a finish to the Confederation before it was even begun, not to mention what the effects of keeping the Aragonese Spaniards in the Italian peninsula would do (no Venetian ascendancy, Aragon doesn't pursue a policy of conquest in North Africa and the African coast but continues interference in Spain). Perhaps no reform of the Church takes place.
 
Top