DBWI:Emperor Yongli never managed to expel the Manchus out of China?

It was almost entirely miraculous that emperor Yongli managed to expel the Manchus out of China.Historians have always wondered about how he managed to did it.Regardless,what would happen if he never succeeded?Also,what would be the religious demographics of China be if he didn't succeed?As we all know,his wife,his mother as well as his oldest son and eventual heir,Constantine, all converted to Roman Catholicism.
 
Ironically the Manchus would probably have greater appeal to the country as a whole than the Catholic Ming. The Manchus could have avoided the 18th-century division of China into a Dzungar North and White Lotus South.

The religious demographics would not be much different. Perhaps Tibetan Buddhism would replace Catholicism to take the role of imperial cult with limited appeal to the population as a whole.
 
Ironically the Manchus would probably have greater appeal to the country as a whole than the Catholic Ming. The Manchus could have avoided the 18th-century division of China into a Dzungar North and White Lotus South.

The religious demographics would not be much different. Perhaps Tibetan Buddhism would replace Catholicism to take the role of imperial cult with limited appeal to the population as a whole.
OOC:Wouldn't better firearms and tactics in the 18th century render nomads pretty powerless?I'd presume that maybe religiously the country might be unstable if the emperor tried to impose Catholicism on his subjects,but to the point where the Dzungars are able to take over the north in the 18th century is a bit awkward.
 
Last edited:
OOC: The Ming were horrible at dealing with the steppe both tactically and strategically, while the Dzungars were fairly adept at using gunpowder. If it was just a matter of technology the Ming would have conquered the southern Mongols by 1600.
 
OOC: The Ming were horrible at dealing with the steppe both tactically and strategically, while the Dzungars were fairly adept at using gunpowder. If it was just a matter of technology the Ming would have conquered the southern Mongols by 1600.
Ooc: Problem is that nomads like these generally have trouble keep up with the latest firearms and being able to afford them as much as a large sedentary state could.The Ming dynasty,if it survived,most likely would rely upon firearms much more than the OTL Manchus.As for your point about conquering the south Mongols by 1600,the Russians too had trouble fighting nomads in the 1600s.By the 1700s however,they were conquering them.I'd say that it's pretty much impossible for nomads to make a comeback again after the 1600s since having better cavalry really isn't much of an edge anymore as almost every soldier's armed with a musket that can fire back and can fight as a spearman if pressed.
 
Last edited:
If he didn't expel the Manchus from China, he could have taken care of the Southern question.

Ho Qui Ly was a damn fine king of Vietnam, but maybe if he had been taken care of early he couldn't have annexed the Guangxi province in 1415. Sure he started small via encroachment but if I recall correctly he took advantage of a "spontaneous" revolt during one of the northern campaigns to intervene to "pacify" the region on behalf of the Emperor.

Sure, the chinese took it back, but only after a few decades of war. Vietnam sure used their champa allies well, not that they had much of a choice though. Chinese never took Hainan back though
 
Top